Coal Bed Methane

[Nemont]

I bet you couldn't if you figure in the cost of travel from Montana to Texas.

I get down there once in while. I have always wanted to go on a spring snow goose hunt there.

Nemont

 

[Tom]

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/news/news/010205a.htm

has a list of public places here for snow geese. During the extended season, they want us to get them, they made electronic calls legal, I have one, I have decoys.

We don't get Canada geese here much, you got any of those to hunt? I want one, they have them in north Texas, but I haven't got up there yet.

 

[Nemont]

yes we have Canada Geese.

Nemont

 

[Nut]

Originally posted by Deerslayer:
Sometimes it needs to be about doing the right thing......

To me the arguements show that we need to keep some places away from the energy extraction biznesses. They are profit motivated and truthfully dont give a rats ass what they leave behind. So I agree with DS's arguements that the right thing is not being done right now.

If it was then we would be hearing more about switching to alternative energy sources that do not damage the lands.

 

[BuzzH]

Tom, I know you're a smart guy, I know you do care about wildlife.

What you dont understand is the long-term negative impacts, and the fact that quality habitat and animals, as well as quality PUBLIC lands, are shrinking...way to fast. I dont ever, and I mean ever, want to have to pay for a lease to hunt. I've said this before, and I mean it, I'll join PETA before I'm forced to buy a lease. Thats why I fight for public lands, in particular for public lands that are critical to wildlife. Am I selfish?...you damn right I am, and I wont apologize for wanting to keep public lands, public wildlife, from being destroyed.

You said, "the few displaced elk and mule deer and antelpe for the CBM sites during this temporary 20 year period?"

Wrong, there wont be few displaced wild ungulates, there will be no recovery. In your research efforts, did you hear any mention of the CBM developers, the BLM, etc. remediating any of the thousands upon thousands of miles of roads that will be built?

There wont be a finger lifted to remediate a single road by the industry, thats a fact. IF anyone does anything it will be the sportsmen to the rescue or the tax payer, more than likley the taxpayer.

Also, you dont understand aesthetic value, you're again trying to quanitify aesthetics based purely on a $700 license to hunt. What value do you give preserving wildlife habitat for future generations? How do put a dollar value on an area where a person hikes? Watches birds? Watches wildlife? Camps? How about the value a person in NY city feels in simply KNOWING that wild places exist? You dont have to recreate on or even SEE an area to appreciate the intrinsic value of a piece of land.

 

[guppie9]

Originally posted by Nemont:
The problem is that it is incremental. First it is CBM in the PRB then it is a proposal to again drill on the Rocky Mountain front. Then drill in ANWR. Many of these places are irreplacable.

Nemont, I know I'm going to regret jumping in the middle of this fray,

but I have to. I do not pretend to know much about CBM in your neck of the woods. However, please don't pretend to know everything about ANWR. Just as, perhaps, Tom may not know much about Montana and Wyoming. As I said, I don't know much about CBM in your area. However, what I do know, is that the many Alaskans, myself included, support opening ANWR to drilling. The "footprint" that is required for drilling in ANWR is minute compared to the overall size of ANWR. It is also much, much less than CBM. (Nowhere near the one drill every 80 acres someone quoted for CBM) Please do not listen to the incessant ranting of environmental groups who probably have never set foot in Alaska and do not know our needs. That is my biggest gripe; how much outside influencing goes on when it comes to issues such as these. You seem to be upset at Tom because he is in Texas and is trying to tell you what should be done with your land in Montana and Wyoming. Whether or not I think Tom is right or wrong is of no value. I do agree that states should be able to have a large say in what happens to the lands in their states, regardless if it is on federal land or not. As someone said earlier, water, land, and animals do not follow political boundries. I know this may be off topic, but recently there was a big stink about wolf hunting in certain areas of Alaska. The wolf were getting out of control and killing off all the moose.

The state stepped in and authorized a short wolf hunt. An environmental group from Connecticutt (Connecticutt!!!!????) stepped in and created a big ruckus, passing out flyers in New York City and calling for a tourist boycott of Alaska. This is ridiculous!! Stay out of my state's business and I will stay out of yours. While I realize that we are a United States, local problems need to be dealt with on a local basis. As for CBM...I am undecided. It just so happens that this is an issue down in Anchorage, because they want to place wells in residential areas. People are concerned that it will lower their property value. In addition, the wells will go beneath many of these residential areas and there are concerns about their private water wells as well as possible soil degradation, leading to their houses toppling to the ground. I don't know if that is true or not, but if it is remotely true, than it sounds like a bad idea to me!!! Oh well, I have ranted on long enough. Just wanted to get my two cents worth in, although it looks as though it may be more than two cents!!

I'll get down now-->

 

[Nemont]

Guppie,
I didn't say I knew anything about the ANWR. I was pointing out a pattern. If I upset you I truly am sorry and will retract. As for staying out of your states business and vice versa, I agree the trouble is that not everyone else thinks that way. U.S. citizens have this funny idea of having a right to have a say, as well as access, public owned lands.
I am not going to crusade for no drilling on the ANWR.


So sorry

Nemont

 

[guppie9]

No Nemont...you didn't offend me...no need to apologize or retract. Everyone has a right to an opinion. I do see your point about the pattern. I get pretty worked up sometimes when it comes to my state. I probably came off a little harsh. Sorry about that.

I am interested in CBM because of what is happening down in Anchorage. Do you, or anyone, know if there have been any reported problems with ground water contamination or the lowering of the water table to the point that it:

a)dries up private drinking water wells
b)renders the soil unstable

Just curious as this has been a big deal up here the last year or so.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I see this as very funny. I point out a fact of life, have nothing to do with the way that fact of life is instigated and a couple of you fellers think it very appropriate to jump down my throat... LOL... No matter what you like to think, if there was no money in this whole thing for Privates/Feds/States, they would not be in the middle of it pushing to make things happen. Yes it may get shut down.....For now..... but eventually some one will be in the right place with the right clout, and the right amount of money and this thing will go thru. Unless, those complaining about it, happen to come up with a new energy resource...
Mark, the extra posts was meant as a funny, you guy's are way to serious I saw less quality of posts immediatly following mine on almost every post. What's with that...

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese,

Thank you for your continued input into a subject you havent a clue about...as usual.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Yep, another quality post

... Thanks Buzz...

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese,

Read your posts on this topic...then come back and we'll talk about "quality".

At this rate you might catch up to Bill...keep going, someday you can be the post HERO.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I looked back, every time I give a full comment, I get small posts back, pretty much immediatly following any posted...

quote:
-----------------------------------------------
You're also wrong about money being the driving force behind proper land management. Check into Natural Resource Policy and law some time, you might find some things of interest.
-----------------------------------------------

Your kidding right???
This is the whole basis of land managment. No matter what is written.

That was me..
Not meant to malus, just ask a question.

Elkcheese,

Go educate yourself on public land management and resource policy, or better yet, look it up on the net.

You dont have a clue.

Your quote...

you're wrong

Your favorite saying, even when your not right.

Your right it is... I really don't mind being the target person. As I have stated before, this is just the internet, and except for a couple pics, you are just a faceless person here as are most of us. So what?

You like to call names and drag me down, but you can't prove what I have said wrong and that just for some reason eats at your very soul.

Now it would be really nice if you just got to the point of what's really bothering you and then maybe we could do some thing about it.

I post some thing that isn't degrading,

Elkcheese,

I cant prove what you said is wrong?

Thats funny, real funny.

Do you see a trend with Oak, Pointer, Miller, Nemont, etc. etc. etc. always having to correct you?

Why is that?

They all just picking on you?

Earth to Elkcheese.

Here is your well informative answer

No, I don't see a big trend with that going on...
Once in a while, and some of the "correcting" by some you mentioned, not all, really aren't correcting, but stating one sided facts with endless piles of web space taken up with miles of cut and paste that some one else with an agenda sat down and put together.
It seems only your silly attacks have a tendency to go nowhere...
I can just see this conversation going on in person....
I'm standing there watching this individual screaming and holloring at the top of their lungs, going on and on about nothing. Why is that? What does it gain? Who is it really supposed to impress?

I post some thing that isn't nasty, and ask questiong...

Elkcheese,

If you dont see a trend, you arent looking.

I suggest you look up the word "denial".

Another well informative post.

Are you in a contest with Bill now to catch him?

Hey Buzz...
Thanks for helping me get my post count for the day up any way, I really do appreciate it ,the rest of the board has been pretty slow as of late...

I make a little joke, and then get told to stay on topic? Come on now, if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander..

Elkcheese,

If you dont know about CBM development and its impacts, why did you even post in this thread?

Other than you're babble, its stayed pretty much on topic.

Elkcheese,

Thanks for providing your vast knowledge of CBM development on this thread, and your reason for posting worthless crap. Glad to see you're keeping up with Bill for the most posts.

And thanks for keeping me there, even when I do comment on the topic...

Elkcheese,

Thank you for your continued input into a subject you havent a clue about...as usual.

And thanks for helping me stay on line.

Elkcheese,

Read your posts on this topic...then come back and we'll talk about "quality".

At this rate you might catch up to Bill...keep going, someday you can be the post HERO.

And another one.... Sorry you couldn't be my hero Buzz, we are only allowed one in life...

 

[Tom]

Buzz, If people put in the contracts with the well diggers to put the roads back too, then that's what the company will do, put the roads back, just put it in the contract. The contracts usually say they have to put the land back like it was, we need a contract to look at? I imagine those private landowners up there have lots of use for roads, so maybe they skip that part, its up to them. Buzz, tell me the long term effects of the renewable resources, how many elk we going to loose, how many mule deer? Here's some data that would be good to have on elk and mule deer to shed light on this. I've seen it on whitetails, but not tried to get it for elk and mule deer, till now. Maybe somebody with a new B&C book could count it up, I don't have one. Here's what the data is like.

More than half the B&C whitetails have been shot in the last 20 years, despite records for over 100 years.
Here's the charts. Look how lit up the 1980-2001 one is compared to 1830-1979.
http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/records_whitetail.asp?area=bgRecords
The good old days are right now, its a renewable resource, we renew the land, the animals. Right now is the best hunting ever.

If most Americans had one of those 80 acre pieces of property up there and a well already on it, pumping water out the cazzoo, with a road to it, they'd be in 7th heaven. Its not the end of the world for elk and mule deer and antelope. Nut, you already had too many kids, you're contributing to the problem, population explosion, not solving it. Do the right thing, not you. I like you and your family, but don't expect others to do the right thing for you and go pointing the finger at them.

Texas has trouble with the water level like you're worried about in Alaska. Here's what's happening, as I understand it at the moment, but I think they fixed it last legislative session, I'm not sure. The worry has been this.

A whole bunch of rural landowners have their water wells down, say 500 ft. A big city, that gulps down the water on people's stupid yard lawns and golf courses comes along. Instead of feeding cattle and wildlife they buy the water rights from some little ranch and then the city puts down one huge well to say 1000 ft. They pump water out the cazzoo and ship it to town for the city folks. Pretty soon all the neighbors 500 ft wells start drying up, cattle and wildlife start dieing. Major problem, eh.
I know the city shut down a guy who had an artesian well and was running a catfish farm. He basically wasted the water on a few catfish, instead of putting it to better use. I'd have to check and see what happened to protecting the rural people from the city, but I know they worked on it.

Nut, you don't water your grass do you?

How's that Elkchaser, its bigger than a little post. Somebody probably put a little one in, before I typed this after yours though. Don't sweat the little things, eh. Be happy!

 

[Bambistew]

Tom... check out the number of muledeer entered into the book in the last 20 years and then compare that to the last 100... For whitetails and elk you are right but the development of CBM will destroy even more muledeer habitat!

 

[Nemont]

Tom,

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.

More than half the B&C whitetails have been shot in the last 20 years, despite records for 100 years. The good old days are now, its a renewable resource, we renew the land, the animals. Right now is the best hunting ever.

Have you ever read the journals of Lewis and Clark. Take a look at the bounty of game they describe in their journals.

The current B&C trophy record book system was put into place in 1950. (B&C History)

If we only want to hunt whitetails that would be fine however mule deer, bighorn sheep, antelope, mountain goats etc, etc are not as adaptable as Whitetails.

Ask any avid Mule deer hunter in Colorado or Utah if this is the good old days.

I really don't know what else to tell you here Tom but you aren't getting it.

Nemont

 

[Tom]

Here's the snow goose in blue phase, we call them a blue goose, I got mounted. The one to the right of it, is a Ross goose, a little smaller head and body than a snow goose. I'll take a picture of the snow goose I got mounted tomorrow I guess.

Can any body count the mule deer in the latest B&C? How many in the 90s, how many in the 80s, how many in the 70s, etc.?

If you look at the map for 1980-2001 for whitetail, it looks like 1-2 entries in each of Wyoming and Montana over the last 20 years in the CBM area. If we lost all of those due to CBM, we loose, maximum 4 B&C whitetails. That's far from the benefits of 60 billion in gas over 20 years.

4 hunters B&C whitetail during 20 years of gas versus 7% more of the 240 million (15 million Americans) annual supply of gas. The B&C whitetai hunt lasts maybe a week for those 4 hunters, while the memories last longer. Maybe those B&C whitetail hunters will buy gas for the 15 million Americans for 20 years and they can stop the gas production there. You get it, what do you tell those 14 million people? Maybe those 4 B&C whitetail hunters can convince 14 million people to not use gas for the next 20 years. That's the task at hand, isn't it? Get it?

I think if you go to Alaska, the hunting is like it was for Lewis and Clark when they came here. Its easier to get to Alaska though, they fly you in, fly you out. You can canoe or raft around like Lewis and Clark if you want, they'll fly you in some supplies, fly out your game. There's lots of things better than Lewis and Clark days now but if you want to canoe like they did, you can do that up there, go for it.

I'm trying to get some quantities. The gas well advocates say about 60 billion worth of gas. Nobody here matches it with anything meaningful on the animal/habitat losses.

You could go kick a bush and kill it and say you've destroyed mule deer habitat. You have to quantify it, how many bushes?, or people just imagine some small impact and choose the gas. I get that part just fine.

People know the animals can come back, they know people need the gas. Look how successful animal populations have come back since the turn of the century. No problem, its a renewable resource, just make sure you don't wash the topsoil away.

Count the mule deer from Colorado and Utah over the decades, tell me those numbers, if you want to make it easier counting.

[ 06-23-2004, 10:45: Message edited by: Tom ]

 

[mtmiller]

Apparently I missed something. Is this an issue of 2 B&C whitetails vs. CBM? Lewis/Clark vs. Alaska opportunities?

Usually I learn something when I come here. I am pretty sure after reading that last post I just got stupider

 

[Nemont]

mtmiller,
I don't know how this got to this point. I don't think Tom is getting it regarding CBM and habitat. Also who cares only about whitetails anyway?

I don't know what hunting in Alaska has to with destroying habitat in the PRB. I guess I am stupider also

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Here, let me "stir up the pot"....

Guppe is completely WRONG with his post on people Outside of Alaska should not have input (or at least influence) on ANWAR and the drilling up there, because "most Alaskans" want it.

Well, since it is FEDERAL lands, then I would say EVERYONE in the US has an interest in that land, and EVERYONE should have input. And if most of us think there is no reason to drill TODAY, then that is probably a good decision, and it does not matter what the "Alaskans" want to do on MY PUBLIC LANDS. If we still need to drill in 60 years, then check with my GrandChildren, and let them have the honor to drill. Until then, let's all get behind Dubya, and keep supporting him invading more Oil Rich countries in the Middle East.

Is the the CBM land on FEDERAL land or State land?

Tom,
No body really cares about how many B&C whitetails get into a book. With all the Stupid things that Texans do, with feeders, mineral supplements, breeding at Universities, etc... Whitetail hunting for "trophy" bucks is not even sporting.