Catastrophic Point Creep in Golf

[TN_Rifle_Junkie]

WOW this thread definitely got way off track. Hilarious. I served on the USS Boise for a few years just after they won the Fiesta Bowl. It was a moment of pride for the Submarine community. We had BSU mustangs and blue "carpet" all over the sub on everything. Heck, I think the head coach, mayor, and dean even came for a visit once.

 

[EastTNHunter]

After looking into things- there are approx 1,100 limited quota elk tags issued to NR every year under the new 90/10 model.

I thought that the 90/10 model was only for sheep and moose. Did they go this direction for other species as well?

 

[Festus]

I attended the company outing this past summer. It was more fun than I thought it would be. I'll probably go again next year. Might even practice a time or two between now and then. Couple people said I was a natural.
Won't be missing any hunting or fishing days for it. Won't be trading in my boots for any funny looking shoes, either.

I'd sure rather have Ruth along instead of that cart, though.

 

[R.K.]

I thought that the 90/10 model was only for sheep and moose. Did they go this direction for other species as well?

Not yet. But I think there were only 1,100 issued last year under 84/16.

 

[gouch]

I don't play golf so pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't point creep be a good thing? If a par 3 creeps up to a par 5 and a par 5 creeps to a 7 or 8, then shooting Par just got a lot easier.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I don't play golf so pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't point creep be a good thing? If a par 3 creeps up to a par 5 and a par 5 creeps to a 7 or 8, then shooting Par just got a lot easier.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I attended the company outing this past summer. It was more fun than I thought it would be. I'll probably go again next year. Might even practice a time or two between now and then. Couple people said I was a natural.
Won't be missing any hunting or fishing days for it. Won't be trading in my boots for any funny looking shoes, either.

I'd sure rather have Ruth along instead of that cart, though.

View attachment 226390

What er...caliber? sticks do you use?

 

[BuzzH]

Not yet. But I think there were only 1,100 issued last year under 84/16.

Please explain...there were 14,199 NR elk tags issued in Wyoming last year, IIRC.

 

[PrairieHunter]

WOW this thread definitely got way off track. Hilarious. I served on the USS Boise for a few years just after they won the Fiesta Bowl. It was a moment of pride for the Submarine community. We had BSU mustangs and blue "carpet" all over the sub on everything. Heck, I think the head coach, mayor, and dean even came for a visit once.

OU fans are still not over that.

 

[BackofBeyond]

OU fans are still not over that.

Thoughts and prayers.

 

[PrairieHunter]

Thoughts and prayers.

LOL. I'd say OU has managed to recover from the embarrassment.

With NIL $ and Transfers, along with TV $, Boises best days are long gone. But it was fun while it lasted.

 

[R.K.]

Please explain...there were 14,199 NR elk tags issued in Wyoming last year, IIRC.

That number includes general, cow/calf, etc.

I was counting the regular draw, antlered or any elk tags, excluding the 2,144 general tags (536 random, 1,608 pref point). In my mind, that fits the definition of a regular draw, mid-to-top tier tag, which I think anybody with 5+ points would focus on. Open to suggestions on how to massage the data differently.

Then there’s the special draw, which has the other 40% of the tags.

Totals for 2021 are below for the stated tag criteria, taken from Wyoming game and fish demand reports available online (pdf, had to do text to columns to filter).

Wyoming Nonresident Bull tags
Regular draw
Random- 236 limited, 536 general.
Point scam - 708 limited, 1,608 general
Total- 944 limited, 2,144 general, 3,088 total

Special (Line cutters) Draw
Random- 157 limited, 357 general
Point scam- 472 limited, 1072 general
Total- 629 limited, 1,429 general, 2,058 total

Overall- 1,573 limited, 3,573 general, 5,146 total.

So there’s 944 limited entry bull tags issued through the regular draw last year to nonresidents, of the 5,146 total bull tags to nonresidents, of the 14,199 total tags issued to nonresidents.

Definitely open to suggestions on how to interpret this differently, as there’s probably some nuance that I’m unfamiliar with or just plain overlooked.

 

[BuzzH]

That number includes general, cow/calf, etc.

I was counting the regular draw, antlered or any elk tags, excluding the 2,144 general tags (536 random, 1,608 pref point). In my mind, that fits the definition of a regular draw, mid-to-top tier tag, which I think anybody with 5+ points would focus on. Open to suggestions on how to massage the data differently.

Then there’s the special draw, which has the other 40% of the tags.

Totals for 2021 are below for the stated tag criteria, taken from Wyoming game and fish demand reports available online (pdf, had to do text to columns to filter).

Wyoming Nonresident Bull tags
Regular draw
Random- 236 limited, 536 general.
Point scam - 708 limited, 1,608 general
Total- 944 limited, 2,144 general, 3,088 total

Special (Line cutters) Draw
Random- 157 limited, 357 general
Point scam- 472 limited, 1072 general
Total- 629 limited, 1,429 general, 2,058 total

Overall- 1,573 limited, 3,573 general, 5,146 total.

So there’s 944 limited entry bull tags issued through the regular draw last year to nonresidents, of the 5,146 total bull tags to nonresidents, of the 14,199 total tags issued to nonresidents.

Definitely open to suggestions on how to interpret this differently, as there’s probably some nuance that I’m unfamiliar with or just plain overlooked.

By regulation, NR's receive 7,250 LQ full priced tags in the initial draw and they got them, likely a few more than that since the GF doesn't split party applications.

NR's also draw more full priced/antlered tags in the leftover draw.

Plus cow calf tags.

This number is not correct:

Overall- 1,573 limited, 3,573 general, 5,146 total.

Overall-3,677 limited quota full priced tags, 3,573 general tags for a total of 7,250 tags.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

By regulation, NR's receive 7,250 LQ full priced tags in the initial draw and they got them, likely a few more than that since the GF doesn't split party applications.

NR's also draw more full priced/antlered tags in the leftover draw.

Plus cow calf tags.

$42... you heard that right Buzz $42 for 18 holes.


Apparently The Country Club in Brookline is like $500k initiation fee plus $1500 a month, and that's just to be allowed on the property. https://golf.com/news/the-country-club-brookline-history-membership-pricing/

I think clearly Wyoming is subsidizing it's golfing with such low prices. What a waste, think about all the money the folks could be raking in...

Why the subsidy, why let NR whack balls at such ungodly low rates, clearly the market will bear so much more. I mean that's like a pronghorn doe tag... by all accounts worthless.

SMH

 

[Festus]

What er...caliber? sticks do you use?

Ah... 6.5 creedmoor. Obviously.
The 9 iron was wearing out my shoulder.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Ah... 6.5 creedmoor. Obviously.
The 9 iron was wearing out my shoulder.

Only a Big Bertha has enough thump factor.

 

[PrairieHunter]

$42... you heard that right Buzz $42 for 18 holes.
View attachment 226436

Apparently The Country Club in Brookline is like $500k initiation fee plus $1500 a month, and that's just to be allowed on the property. https://golf.com/news/the-country-club-brookline-history-membership-pricing/

I think clearly Wyoming is subsidizing it's golfing with such low prices. What a waste, think about all the money the folks could be raking in...

Why the subsidy, why let NR whack balls at such ungodly low rates, clearly the market will bear so much more. I mean that's like a pronghorn doe tag... by all accounts worthless.

SMH

That's not even remotely similar.

You obviously did not like it when I pointed out how NR hunters are subsidized by the state of Wyoming, likely because you know it's true.

Lets see how much you all get from Wyoming.

7,250 tags at $700 = Just over 5 million

Fair market value for the states resource is more like 2,500.

7,250 x $2,500 = over 18 million

So subsidizing reduced price NR elk tags costs the state around 13 million $ of lost revenue alone. Add up all the NR antelope, deer, etc tags and we are likely talking about a 30-50 million per year.

Yea, that's a lot of $ for the state to lose out on. Has nothing to do with private golf courses.

 

[BuzzH]

$42... you heard that right Buzz $42 for 18 holes.
View attachment 226436

Apparently The Country Club in Brookline is like $500k initiation fee plus $1500 a month, and that's just to be allowed on the property. https://golf.com/news/the-country-club-brookline-history-membership-pricing/

I think clearly Wyoming is subsidizing it's golfing with such low prices. What a waste, think about all the money the folks could be raking in...

Why the subsidy, why let NR whack balls at such ungodly low rates, clearly the market will bear so much more. I mean that's like a pronghorn doe tag... by all accounts worthless.

SMH

If you want the answer to that I can get it straight from the source, snapped this picture a moment ago:

My neighbor across the street is the Exec. Director of the Wyoming Golf Association, great guy and a golf pro, went to college on a golf scholarship. I just talked to him earlier this morning. Need his number?

I'm probably the last guy to ask about golf...but since you asked the question, I'll give it a shot anyway.

The reason Wyoming golf is underpriced in comparison to other places is that the market probably won't bear much more than that. You know, that whole supply/demand thing and much better courses found elsewhere is my guess. But again, I'm not a golf pro, but my neighbor Dave is.

I would also reckon that Wyoming hunting is akin to that fancy and much better course you're talking about, that clearly DOES NOT cut NR golfers any slack. In other words, Wyoming is the Brookline golf course of hunting.

We should be charging Brookline prices for our hunting, comparatively speaking. Yet, we aren't.

Is there anything else you want to discuss?

Oh, and extra points for saying doe pronghorn are worthless...keeping it classy. The exact reason I usually find a handful of dead ones left to rot and several a year with legs swinging.

But judging by the leftover list, and drawing odds, I'd say many place a higher value on them you appear to:

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Licensing/6_NR-Doe_Fawn-Deer-Demand-Report.pdf

https://wgfapps.wyo.gov/QuotaAvailability/SelectionCriteria.aspx

 

[Deleted member 28227]

That's not even remotely similar.

You obviously did not like it when I pointed out how NR hunters are subsidized by the state of Wyoming, likely because you know it's true.

Lets see how much you all get from Wyoming.

7,250 tags at $700 = Just over 5 million

Fair market value for the states resource is more like 2,500.

7,250 x $2,500 = over 18 million

So subsidizing reduced price NR elk tags costs the state around 13 million $ of lost revenue alone. Add up all the NR antelope, deer, etc tags and we are likely talking about a 30-50 million per year.

Yea, that's a lot of $ for the state to lose out on. Has nothing to do with private golf courses.

A whole season for $219 and you don't even need to be friends with George Bush to join... the outrage

 

[R.K.]

By regulation, NR's receive 7,250 LQ full priced tags in the initial draw and they got them, likely a few more than that since the GF doesn't split party applications.

NR's also draw more full priced/antlered tags in the leftover draw.

Plus cow calf tags.

This number is not correct:

Overall- 1,573 limited, 3,573 general, 5,146 total.

Overall-3,677 limited quota full priced tags, 3,573 general tags for a total of 7,250 tags.

Counting the spike and antlerless, it comes to 7,280 total- 4,368 regular and 2,912 special draw. The additional “cow or calf” tags are different units/codes/quotas, and listed in a separate draw odds report.

I’m not disagreeing with your numbers- those are all full priced, limited quota, issued in the initial draw.

I filtered mine down to bull tags (because I want one), not general units (because I’m shooting for the stars), and regular draw, because I’m a regular guy with a regular income. We appear to be counting different things here- you’re focused on the total nonresident pressure, while I’m focused on my chances to get a more premium bull tag in my lifetime. Those are vastly different metrics- there are 944 tags issued that meet those criteria of the 7,250 allocated.

I’m also not counting leftovers, reduced price tags, etc.

So I could get lucky. I could draw random. I could get a a leftover. I could pay to play in the line cutter’s scam. I could also marry a supermodel rocket scientist who is the sole heiress to a Montana ranch. At this point, I figure the odds are all about similar.