Canada . . . or Texas?
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Tom
New member
So is this a cost issue to you. I guess I am looking at it totally differently.
BTW, elk are by nature gregarioius for the most part. Not unusual to see them in herd like the photo you posted whether they are on private or public, overhunted areas or nonhunted areas. Cool thing is none of them have an ear tag or name.
Kinda cool to pattern the habits of a wild critter, but I guess you knew that as you know what time the feeder is set for.
BTW, elk are by nature gregarioius for the most part. Not unusual to see them in herd like the photo you posted whether they are on private or public, overhunted areas or nonhunted areas. Cool thing is none of them have an ear tag or name.
Kinda cool to pattern the habits of a wild critter, but I guess you knew that as you know what time the feeder is set for.
northwestalaska
New member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2006
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- 104
Elk in Texas??
I am going to poke some fun here so please don’t get mad at me.
What kind of hunter would hunt any animal behind a high fence? The idea that I should go to Texas for anything is just beyond me. When God made Texas he must have been asleep! (only kidding guys) The concept of producing a better trophy and cull hunting to improve the herd is just tooo much for me.
Hunting is a skill that we learn through long hours in the field and we, as hunters should be ashamed to allow trophy hunting that is not fair chase. I get sick watching the outdoor channel promote hunting ranches where you buy a trophy buck or bull. We all should get out our pens and fire off letters so the sponsors of those shows know that hunting is sliding into something ugly. Lets all get real and not call it hunting and call it farming elk or deer and the next time the topic is brought up we should all turn our backs on this form of “hunting”
Walt
Northwest Alaska Back Country Rentals
Kotzebue, Alaska
Your best bet in rafts, canoes and camp rentals in all of NW Alaska
www.northwestalaska.com
I am going to poke some fun here so please don’t get mad at me.
What kind of hunter would hunt any animal behind a high fence? The idea that I should go to Texas for anything is just beyond me. When God made Texas he must have been asleep! (only kidding guys) The concept of producing a better trophy and cull hunting to improve the herd is just tooo much for me.
Hunting is a skill that we learn through long hours in the field and we, as hunters should be ashamed to allow trophy hunting that is not fair chase. I get sick watching the outdoor channel promote hunting ranches where you buy a trophy buck or bull. We all should get out our pens and fire off letters so the sponsors of those shows know that hunting is sliding into something ugly. Lets all get real and not call it hunting and call it farming elk or deer and the next time the topic is brought up we should all turn our backs on this form of “hunting”
Walt
Northwest Alaska Back Country Rentals
Kotzebue, Alaska
Your best bet in rafts, canoes and camp rentals in all of NW Alaska
www.northwestalaska.com
I think Theodore Roosevelt had it pretty well pegged when he said the following. More amazing to know he made this statement before the modern day "shooting pens" for those willing to pay by the inch.
“The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide or for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers and other trophies; market men who put game in cold storage; and the rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions – these are the men who are the real enemies of game.”
'Nuff said.
“The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide or for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers and other trophies; market men who put game in cold storage; and the rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions – these are the men who are the real enemies of game.”
'Nuff said.
Tom
New member
mtmiller, the point is that there are many ways to look at it, not just the one you like or I like or some guy in the middle of Kotzebue, AK likes. What about places like NY and PA and MI, they have 1 million hunters each in those states? If a hunter doesn't want to support game management, then they don't get to experience a lot of hunting. Whoever sets the tag limits for them, will help them do that part of hunting, whether they learn to appreciate it or not.
Maybe its not usual to see them in a herd, because you chase the heck out of them and make them live an unatural life, at least during hunting season in most places.
Here's some more "unusual" herded up pictures of those majestic and illusive Montana elk.
Maybe its not usual to see them in a herd, because you chase the heck out of them and make them live an unatural life, at least during hunting season in most places.
Here's some more "unusual" herded up pictures of those majestic and illusive Montana elk.
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MarvB
Well-known member
Damn it, why do I have to chime in on these threads |oo
Tom- Two things....first, we have these things in the West called game refuges, national parks, wilderness areas....places where we don't "chase the heck out of them" and, to our utter amazement, they still herd up because THAT'S WHAT ELK DO!
Secondly,
What looks more "normal" to you?
Tom- Two things....first, we have these things in the West called game refuges, national parks, wilderness areas....places where we don't "chase the heck out of them" and, to our utter amazement, they still herd up because THAT'S WHAT ELK DO!
Secondly,
then he/she ain't much of a "hunter"!
What looks more "normal" to you?
chambero
New member
I can't necessarily put it in words, but there is a big difference (to me) in hunting an elk on Vermejo or one of the similar large western ranches and in shooting one behind a high fence in Texas or anywhere else. That elk has no chance of escape behind a high fence. Somehow that is the line I draw in my own mind.
On the other hand, you can have a completely fair chase whitetail hunt on a really big high-fenced place (even though I don't want any part of it).
And there is plenty of of good honest hunting to be had in Texas. Don't think for a second one place is any "better" ethically than another.
By the way, if you haven't chased a wild pig across a pasture in a pickup then you haven't lived. No way the NASCAR races can be nearly as fun. For those wondering, wild hogs are considered nuisances in Texas and are completely unregulated. People trap them and sell them for meat, hunt them with dogs, from blinds, etc. And occassionally give one a good run.
On the other hand, you can have a completely fair chase whitetail hunt on a really big high-fenced place (even though I don't want any part of it).
And there is plenty of of good honest hunting to be had in Texas. Don't think for a second one place is any "better" ethically than another.
By the way, if you haven't chased a wild pig across a pasture in a pickup then you haven't lived. No way the NASCAR races can be nearly as fun. For those wondering, wild hogs are considered nuisances in Texas and are completely unregulated. People trap them and sell them for meat, hunt them with dogs, from blinds, etc. And occassionally give one a good run.
Bambistew
Well-known member
Tom,
I rarely even read what you write because you're so far off the deep end its not worth effort, not to mention, the time it takes to comprehend your writing to figure out the point you’re trying to get across.
This thread is no different, but the pictures lured me in, so here's my take.
Man has been hunting elk/deer on the NA continent for thousands of years. Taking hunting out of the equation (see high fence reduced hunting pressure), and supplemental feeding in and of itself is removing a major part of the equation as far as animal behavior is concerned. The picture of a deer under a feeder is hardly in its ‘natural’ undisturbed state, I could post a picture of a cow standing in a field eating a bale of hay and in my mind (and many others) it would be the exact same thing. BTW, you shot a cow didn't you?
I do agree that TX gets a bad wrap as far as game farms/high fence ranches go (if I remember right CO and PA have almost as many Pen shooting preserves as TX, not acreage wise, but operation wise), but Texans seem to treat ALL wild animals like livestock regardless of if they're in a pen or not. It’s just the mindset of a majority of Texans, you being a prime example. All one has to do is look for a hunt in TX to verify this. Just look at the price tag put on rack scores, and the advent of “cull” buck hunts. What a fuggn joke.
For the rest of the world, game animals are not treated as such, and a price tag is not set on the rack size, thank god! Your post about what one costs is a prime example of how you think about animals, they're nothing more than dollar bills to you, and the experience of hunting them in your mind seems to be no different than paying your electric bill.
I'm going to make a guess but I'm willing to bet you've never been on a "real" elk hunt in the mountains on their turf. Hunting to you seems to be nothing more than killing, and by what ever means it takes to be nearly 100% successful. To me you miss the biggest part of the whole equation of hunting, the CHALLENGE. When I've hiked in 3-4 miles for 2-3 hours in the dark, finally get to my vantage point anticipating the sunrise, freezing my azz off in knee deep snow, hoping to just catch a glimpse of an elk, I know I'm hunting them the way they were intended to be hunted.
I've heard this a 1000 times and in my mind its true, elk are not killed, their EARNED!
Sitting in a heated blind, watching a food plot or corn flinger is hardly 'natural'. You seem to have this notion that when you go hunting you are expected to see the animals you intend to kill, hence the reason for fences and corn flingers. I've been on 10x as many hunts that I didn't even so much as see a hair, but didn't come back and think... man I need a fence, corn flinger, food plot, trail camera, and brood stock so I can go out and see animals in their 'natural' state every time I'm out, not to mention, I don’t think I’m seeing enough 150BC type bucks so we need to start culling the inferior deer and letting the big bucks grow.
You seem to find plenty of challenge in hunting deer Texas style, and good for you, as long as you’re happy with how you hunt, I could care less. IMO its all about being happy in what you do. The vast majority of hunters in the US can't find any challenge in that kind of hunting however. Not sure why it’s so hard for you to understand that.
You do raise a good point about lightly hunted private ground, but I've hunted plenty of places on public land that receives less pressure than the lightly hunted private ground. The animals all react the same way IMO. Sure there are areas that they get run to death on public land, but I don't hunt those areas. It only takes a few hunters to turn 'lightly hunted elk' into normal elk. Those animals you hunt behind the wire are ‘undisturbed’ because they realize that their livestock, a few are going to have to die so the rest can eat on the corn pile.
I've yet to hear a plausible reason for a high fence. The excuse of having 20,000 acres fenced and the fence not being an issue since deer live in such a small core area doesn't hold much water with me. If that was the case why bother to even put up a fence in the first place since the deer aren’t going to stray?
I rarely even read what you write because you're so far off the deep end its not worth effort, not to mention, the time it takes to comprehend your writing to figure out the point you’re trying to get across.
This thread is no different, but the pictures lured me in, so here's my take.
Man has been hunting elk/deer on the NA continent for thousands of years. Taking hunting out of the equation (see high fence reduced hunting pressure), and supplemental feeding in and of itself is removing a major part of the equation as far as animal behavior is concerned. The picture of a deer under a feeder is hardly in its ‘natural’ undisturbed state, I could post a picture of a cow standing in a field eating a bale of hay and in my mind (and many others) it would be the exact same thing. BTW, you shot a cow didn't you?
I do agree that TX gets a bad wrap as far as game farms/high fence ranches go (if I remember right CO and PA have almost as many Pen shooting preserves as TX, not acreage wise, but operation wise), but Texans seem to treat ALL wild animals like livestock regardless of if they're in a pen or not. It’s just the mindset of a majority of Texans, you being a prime example. All one has to do is look for a hunt in TX to verify this. Just look at the price tag put on rack scores, and the advent of “cull” buck hunts. What a fuggn joke.
For the rest of the world, game animals are not treated as such, and a price tag is not set on the rack size, thank god! Your post about what one costs is a prime example of how you think about animals, they're nothing more than dollar bills to you, and the experience of hunting them in your mind seems to be no different than paying your electric bill.
I'm going to make a guess but I'm willing to bet you've never been on a "real" elk hunt in the mountains on their turf. Hunting to you seems to be nothing more than killing, and by what ever means it takes to be nearly 100% successful. To me you miss the biggest part of the whole equation of hunting, the CHALLENGE. When I've hiked in 3-4 miles for 2-3 hours in the dark, finally get to my vantage point anticipating the sunrise, freezing my azz off in knee deep snow, hoping to just catch a glimpse of an elk, I know I'm hunting them the way they were intended to be hunted.
I've heard this a 1000 times and in my mind its true, elk are not killed, their EARNED!
Sitting in a heated blind, watching a food plot or corn flinger is hardly 'natural'. You seem to have this notion that when you go hunting you are expected to see the animals you intend to kill, hence the reason for fences and corn flingers. I've been on 10x as many hunts that I didn't even so much as see a hair, but didn't come back and think... man I need a fence, corn flinger, food plot, trail camera, and brood stock so I can go out and see animals in their 'natural' state every time I'm out, not to mention, I don’t think I’m seeing enough 150BC type bucks so we need to start culling the inferior deer and letting the big bucks grow.
You seem to find plenty of challenge in hunting deer Texas style, and good for you, as long as you’re happy with how you hunt, I could care less. IMO its all about being happy in what you do. The vast majority of hunters in the US can't find any challenge in that kind of hunting however. Not sure why it’s so hard for you to understand that.
You do raise a good point about lightly hunted private ground, but I've hunted plenty of places on public land that receives less pressure than the lightly hunted private ground. The animals all react the same way IMO. Sure there are areas that they get run to death on public land, but I don't hunt those areas. It only takes a few hunters to turn 'lightly hunted elk' into normal elk. Those animals you hunt behind the wire are ‘undisturbed’ because they realize that their livestock, a few are going to have to die so the rest can eat on the corn pile.
I've yet to hear a plausible reason for a high fence. The excuse of having 20,000 acres fenced and the fence not being an issue since deer live in such a small core area doesn't hold much water with me. If that was the case why bother to even put up a fence in the first place since the deer aren’t going to stray?
guppie9
New member
Bambi...that has got to be one of the best posts I have seen on here in years. Kudos, brother.
MNHunter
Well-known member
Great post Bambi
Bambistew
Well-known member
BTW Tom, do you know where the first picture you posted above was taken? I'm about 99.99% sure I know where its at, and I'm not sure you could find a more 'natural' setting.
chambero
New member
OK, I've somewhat wound up on a middle ground on this one. Take the high fences out of the equation (which I despise), there isn't any difference in hunting whitetails over a feeder than there is a food plot. You might disagree with both, but the vast majority of whitetails taken throughout the country - from the midwest through the south - are taken off of some type of human-planted agricultural food source. Westerners take plenty of deer and elk off alfalfa fields. Don't throw "darts" at this type of hunting unless the animals are forced to be there (high fence).
By the way, don't even start to think that the Texas hunts you can find on the internet are representative what the vast majority of hunting in Texas is. Your average Texas rancher sure as heck doesn't have an internet site. Ranchers don't have to spend money to advertise traditional deer hunting leases. Filling a lease spot only takes a phone call and you pretty much have to know someone. You usually can't satisfy the demand among your friends for hunting spots, let alone opening a place up to the general public.
Your average Texas hunter is just like anywhere else - we go to have a good time with our friends and kids and if we kill something nice its a bonus. The term "cull" or "management" buck aren't in our vocabulary. We usually impose rules on ourselves for nothing less than 8 pts, but most couldn't score a deer if they had to.
The fools you see advertising are City folks who've been unknowingly fleeced and bought very expensive land that they are trying to pay for. Or they are trying to pay for their deer artificial insemination program. I find the term "cull buck" absolutely disgusting and I think it reveals the selfishness of some landowners or hunters when you see a TV show where they allow a young kid the privilge of shooting a cull buck. They've really done something great there. Has nothing to do with the size that bothers me, its the intent and greed behind it that bothers me.
By the way, don't even start to think that the Texas hunts you can find on the internet are representative what the vast majority of hunting in Texas is. Your average Texas rancher sure as heck doesn't have an internet site. Ranchers don't have to spend money to advertise traditional deer hunting leases. Filling a lease spot only takes a phone call and you pretty much have to know someone. You usually can't satisfy the demand among your friends for hunting spots, let alone opening a place up to the general public.
Your average Texas hunter is just like anywhere else - we go to have a good time with our friends and kids and if we kill something nice its a bonus. The term "cull" or "management" buck aren't in our vocabulary. We usually impose rules on ourselves for nothing less than 8 pts, but most couldn't score a deer if they had to.
The fools you see advertising are City folks who've been unknowingly fleeced and bought very expensive land that they are trying to pay for. Or they are trying to pay for their deer artificial insemination program. I find the term "cull buck" absolutely disgusting and I think it reveals the selfishness of some landowners or hunters when you see a TV show where they allow a young kid the privilge of shooting a cull buck. They've really done something great there. Has nothing to do with the size that bothers me, its the intent and greed behind it that bothers me.
Bambistew
Well-known member
Chambro I suspect the majority of Texan hunters are like you. Tom sees no problem with hunting behind wire however. What I eluded to but didn't finish was that TX gets a bad wrap for being all high fenced, when the vast majority of the state is not. Like I said I belive that CO and PA have nearly as many pen hunt opperations.
Agricultural fields are not planted for deer like super duper hormone fertilized Biologenic deer feed or the like specifically targeting deer on nearly a year round basis in a very small area. Food plots are usually an acre or two at most, where as ag fields are huge in comparison. Big diffrence IMO. If there was no difrence why not plant corn instead of boigetbighornslogic or what ever the fugg it is?
Agricultural fields are not planted for deer like super duper hormone fertilized Biologenic deer feed or the like specifically targeting deer on nearly a year round basis in a very small area. Food plots are usually an acre or two at most, where as ag fields are huge in comparison. Big diffrence IMO. If there was no difrence why not plant corn instead of boigetbighornslogic or what ever the fugg it is?
chambero
New member
Another little secret - anybody with a lick of sense down here doesn't waste their money on the specialty hunting seed products you see advertised. We personally have wheat fields - nothing else. Which we either have cattle grazing on at the same time the deer or there or bale for hay later in the spring.
I have no idea how of that stuff they actually sell, but I never see it anywhere. At least in most of Texas, I guarantee you the deer wouldn't pay a bit of attention to the little bitty food plot on their way to the 100+ acre wheat fields. Again, what you see on TV has little to do with reality for most of us down here.
I have no idea how of that stuff they actually sell, but I never see it anywhere. At least in most of Texas, I guarantee you the deer wouldn't pay a bit of attention to the little bitty food plot on their way to the 100+ acre wheat fields. Again, what you see on TV has little to do with reality for most of us down here.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Bambi, why do you have to keep dragging Pa into the Texas gamefarm cesspool?
Tom, Noharley and Chambreo are the bad guys. Please stay on topic.
If you don't stop,I'm going to come out there and Pawclaw you!
Let's change this thread title to 'Canada...or Pennsylvania?'
Ya'll do remember the Canada part, right?trophy_killer
Active member
what is there to argue here?
look at the success rates on those high fence ranches then look at the success rates on general season elk tags in the western states
i think i know which one is gonna be higher...
look at the success rates on those high fence ranches then look at the success rates on general season elk tags in the western states
i think i know which one is gonna be higher...
Tom
New member
Bambistew, I never shot a bambi, I think you're basically an idiot when it comes to this topic who makes up shit about people you don't even know. Its a common error here on the forum so you're not any different than most.
The threads have many different topics within one, there are so many points of view that come out. Where there are so many points to address, it does get confusing, especially for those who tend to think from only one point of view and can't even see the other points of view.
Here's a point for you, hunting is not just about the price tag, no doubt, don't think I believe that for a second. Here's another for you, you can buy an easy ass elk hunt "in the wild" if you want for like $13K on a place like Ted Turner's ranch or you can buy one a lot cheaper on a high fence place. Here's a third, you don't have to want to do either of them, but you have the option. Its because its America, land of the free, its not like when this country started and there were animals all over for everyone, its not like England or France were back before then when the royalty hunted. There are many options to support many kinds of hunting in many states in this country and in other countries and many of them, in many countries, involve high fence operations, like it or not.
You think I"ve never been on an elk hunt, its your problem, I have in multiple states. I think you've never been on a high fence place with hunts and if you haven't, you're typing from ignorance and prejudice more than from experience. But then again, you're named after a cartoon character, so there's not big surprise there.
MarvB, I think you posted a picture of an elk farm, not an elk hunting place, is that true? mtmiller was pointing out that its uncommon to see elk herd up like at Ted Turner's ranch, I'm thinking he meant more during hunting season on public places.
The elk herd eating grass picture I posted was from one of Ted Turner's ranches, the New Mexico one, its the banner of their web page.
The threads have many different topics within one, there are so many points of view that come out. Where there are so many points to address, it does get confusing, especially for those who tend to think from only one point of view and can't even see the other points of view.
Here's a point for you, hunting is not just about the price tag, no doubt, don't think I believe that for a second. Here's another for you, you can buy an easy ass elk hunt "in the wild" if you want for like $13K on a place like Ted Turner's ranch or you can buy one a lot cheaper on a high fence place. Here's a third, you don't have to want to do either of them, but you have the option. Its because its America, land of the free, its not like when this country started and there were animals all over for everyone, its not like England or France were back before then when the royalty hunted. There are many options to support many kinds of hunting in many states in this country and in other countries and many of them, in many countries, involve high fence operations, like it or not.
You think I"ve never been on an elk hunt, its your problem, I have in multiple states. I think you've never been on a high fence place with hunts and if you haven't, you're typing from ignorance and prejudice more than from experience. But then again, you're named after a cartoon character, so there's not big surprise there.
MarvB, I think you posted a picture of an elk farm, not an elk hunting place, is that true? mtmiller was pointing out that its uncommon to see elk herd up like at Ted Turner's ranch, I'm thinking he meant more during hunting season on public places.
The elk herd eating grass picture I posted was from one of Ted Turner's ranches, the New Mexico one, its the banner of their web page.
MarvB
Well-known member
Tom the penned picture I posted was from a facility that is both an elk farm, "hunting?" place, and a place that was surrounded in a bit of controversy awhile back....thought you might recognize good old Rex!
I'll let Craig speak for himself but I didn't take his post to indicate that it's uncommon for elk to herd up on Turner's place or anywhere for that matter. I think it would be more uncommon if they didn't!
I'll let Craig speak for himself but I didn't take his post to indicate that it's uncommon for elk to herd up on Turner's place or anywhere for that matter. I think it would be more uncommon if they didn't!
