Bugle Big For Bigger Bulls!

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ElkNut1

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This is a method we use every year & it has proved to work very well in herd location for the last 30 years! This is of great importance when hunting heavily wooded timber where glassing is tough at best in heavy ground cover where Spot & Stalk conditions would be minimized! When you Bugle big you are representing yourself as a bull who has dominant features & this can attract cows. Cows are looking for bulls that are big & strong, in turn by breeding with these bulls they are assured strong healthy calves that can have a better than average chance to make it through harsh winter conditions.

Representing these types of bulls by us hunters can really trigger bugling action as other bulls will try to out bugle their competitors. Cows can recognize mature qualities just by a bulls bugle & this can attract lone cow groups or lesser bulls with established harems, their cows can show interest in this new bull. All we are interested in are locations during this calling sequence, we have no interest at calling them to us. Once we locate we then adapt to the situation & do what it takes to get that bull into bow-range!

This type of method is best used from the 10th on but can still work much earlier in the season. Have others here employed this tactic, if so what are your thoughts? Thanks!

ElkNut1
 
That is interesting.

I am not a great caller,but it seems that when I "Bugle Big" what is most likely to come in is a Big camouflaged hunter. Given that experience, I haven't tried a Big Bugle much.

I have always tried to sound like a little pip squeak, hoping a bull would sound off, but not be too worried about me, allowing me to close the distance.

How often do you call, once you have him answering back? If you hear him getting closer, do you keep singing to him, or do you just shut up and let him come?

I suspect the answer would be "It depends."
 
Man, I have a lot of success bugling that way. I elk hunt to bugle. If I can't bugle big and hard, then I should just stay home. You have to sound good doing it or you do chase some off! When they are getting closer you definately change tactics, more grunting etc.....
 
the only time I went "Wayne Carlton" on an elk I never heard from him again! guess he wasn't big enough for me anyways:rolleyes:
 
Elknut,

Can you expound please on your second paragraph?

Once you have a mature bull located by bugling big, what methods do you use to coax the big guy into a collision with an arrow?
 
drahthaar said:
After reading a lot of your stuff, I found myself being more aggressive for sure. Also became more successful.
Click to expand...

Same for me.

In the past I was a wait and see what comes to me kind of caller, not I'm using the call to tell me where the bull is as I'm going after him. Sometimes it's not bugles that they respond to though, we got my friends bull this year by dogging him with me hanging back making cow calls as my friend closed in on him.
 
Big Fin, yes, a lot depends on the response or responses received! Too, one must quickly discern by the responses if it's a herd bull or satellite or are several bulls now chiming in! These bulls are worked or approached differently. The odds will be in your favor if you work these bulls according to what they are, we do not use the same sounds for either for best results! We reserve the "Curiosity Card" for Satellites & the Pose A Threat Card for Bulls with cows! The reason for this is that Satellites have nothing to lose or defend as do herd bulls so methods of use are important here as we do our best to get every bull we work into bow range regardless of what he is!

To prevent hangups we rarely use cow sounds only when working a herd bull, in most cases this bull will do his best to call you his way through strong bugling & chuckling instead of coming over to you unless you are under 75yds or so. Fact is with herd bulls if you want a chance to kill him you'd better be prepared to do what he asks if you stay with cow sounds, this means when he's calling yo to the group you have to get aggressive & go right at him mewing excitedly & stomping & running his way with good cover & the wind in your favor. This is a highly aggressive approach but works great when the situation allows it! I've taken several bulls doing this including a couple herd bulls with a longbow.

But it's bull sounds that we work the herd bulls with in most cases, yes cow calls are used once in a great while but only in selective setups! At times Call & Stalk is employed as npaden mentioned, we've used a variety of cow bull sounds to achieve this as well.

T-Bone, rare is the case that we ever try to call a herd bull our way with multiple bugling on our part if all we're doing is locating! We hardly ever go part way to him & bugle again & let him know we are coming his way. If we do we have just given him our new position & going his way, he knows that a real bull will only do this with one thing in mind & that is he wants this guys cows, that is a quick way to turn him & his harem into "runners" you want to avoid that at all costs! There are times bugling back at a herd bull is OK, this is when he is being harassed & bugled at by satellites so he already has them to deal with so one more is a non-issue!

Basically in a nut shell we pinpoint this bulls position get over there quickly & call his cows from him!!!!!! This will piss off a herd bull faster than anything as he does not want any of his cows to leave & show interest in this new contender. To sell this method you MUST bugle strongly to represent yourself with dominant features, this is how you will get this herd bull to physically want to come your way to run you off! If you bugle small your odds just went way down to get him to come to you, herd bulls know that lesser bulls generally just require a vocal intimidation to get them to move back, you must be a formidable opponent to get him to "react"!

ElkNut1
 
Here's some more info that should help out a bit further! Thanks!


When referring to "Calling A Bulls Cows" away from him, many think 1st off that cow sounds are being used by us? Now yes, there are occasions for this & it can work well in the right situation & with the right sound selection! But to use cow sounds no matter what & regardless of the situation will result in many Herd Bull Hang-ups, plus I'm not really wanting cows or young bulls to show first & screw things up! For best results you must be a good reader of an encounter & adapt to it. When referring to Calling His Cows away in an actual close encounter hunting situation we as hunters are looking at getting to the Herd Bull & bringing him our way, this is done in a way that will put the odds well into your favor & not the Bulls Favor in getting him close! This is best done by luring him over to us & NOT any other part of his harem first!!! So basically we are presenting ourselves as a THREAT to him or his harem. This is what will get him to "React" to the situation we are presenting before him! Why does this work? How should it be done to guarantee us the best possible odds & not the bull getting the advantage? This is where understanding why elk do the things they do especially speaking of pre-rut & peak-rut times!

During Pre-Rut especially, it is very common to see multiple bulls with the cow groups & all are getting along just fine & roaming the country-side together, this can also apply during certain Peak Rut times when there are no cows in or nearing estrus. These bulls are familiar with one another & have been sharing various bachelor groups together throughout the Summer. They know one another by Sound, Sight or Smell but every once in a while a "New Guy" will show out of nowhere, he can be welcomed or tolerated with, no big deal. These bulls have gotten their Pecking Orders down in Aug. as they were in these groups Displaying for one another in the form of bugling & rubbing velvet off their antlers, this is all a ritual done every year in prep of both pre-rut & peak-rut times. Any of these "New Guys" that show up most likely will be investigated fairly quickly & identified for future rutting times & where they may fall in the pecking order or scheme of things!

As the Cows start showing signs of Estrus the more dominant bulls that are around are the ones that will secure these cow groups, it is very common for more mature or more dominant bulls to come in & take over a group of cows by simply challenging the "present" herd bull & pushing him out. This can leave many bulls out there without cows, it all depends on an area being hunted & the bull to cow ratio in a given unit. The more bulls the more the competition. Only so many of the bulls can be the Herd Bull, so what about all these other bulls? Some are Juvenile bulls & some depending on the area hunted could be some darned good bulls or Herd Bulls anywhere else! Fact is they still want cows! These bigger more mature bulls can confront a Herd Bull at anytime in a challenging situation, it's more present however as cows are nearing Estrus as this really raises the ante.

So here you have many Bulls that are without cows but desire them! The younger Juvenile/Satellite bulls in the 2X3 to 6X6 range were part of these groups & getting along just fine even though they feel the urges of the rut coming on which hence puts their interest where they're at. As cows show signs of Estrus & nearing ready to be bred these Herd/Dominant Bulls will start pushing these smaller bulls out of the harem or keeping other bulls out that were nearby & now showing personal interest in this or that group because of the hot cows. Many of these younger bulls are confused & don't understand why they cannot be present in the group any longer, after all they too have these same "urges" as the herd bulls do? Their testosterone levels have been escalating ever since there antlers started to re-grow & rubbed the velvet off & polished them up! Now it's really starting to peak & are flat out attracted to the cows, they too want too smell & be near them but the herd bull doesn't allow it! These now Satellite or subordinate bulls will do their best to roar or bugle out at a distance from these big & small herds in hopes of cows wanting to come on over & check them out for breeding considerations. It's the cows who choose the bulls that will breed them not the bulls picking the cows.

Many youngsters are slow learners & keep trying to come back to these herds but every time they get near they get intimidated or physically pushed out by the Herd Bull! After enough consistent butt whippings or being charged at they start getting the message, it's a learning process all Juvenile & Subordinate bulls go through. But they still want Cows!!!!

So what do they resort too, to attract cows to come to them or to come their way? They call to them!!! Yes, they do their best to call cows away from the Herd Bull as they Yearn for a piece of the action. This is done in several ways depending on the phase of the rut & cows in estrus. They know they cannot whip the herd bull so they now fear or respect this, but they can stay away from him at just the right distance which they're now learning is in the 100yd range or more where they can call at the cows in the form of Bugling or Roaring & not be charged at. These subordinate bulls may really mix up their sounds as they get demanding or want to send an urgent message to receive some consideration from any cow at all that will listen. Guess what? Some cows do come their way but it is not very often, in most cases these subordinate bulls must get extremely brave & try to slip in quietly & steal cows, once in close they can get overly excited as they can see or smell cows & use subtle sounds to attract cows their way quickly. Such sounds can stem from raking a tree or brush to display for these cows, or pant several times in a low volume fashion, some will use glunking, some will issue forth a short scream & low chuckling, some 2-3 cow mews & a short scream & go running at the cows in hopes of sweeping a few out of there. Any of these sounds can be mixed & matched during any encounter as this depends on the intruders excitement level. At any rate these bulls know they must act fast in order to stay out of harms way!

So as hunters when we get into encounters with Herd Bulls with cows & slipping in silently will not work for whatever reason then our next best bet is to do our best to represent a satellite bull doing his darnedest in calling a herd bulls cows away! If we do this too far out or outside a 125 yds or so our odds of success will drop as the Herd Bull will issue forth a warning but generally isn't forced to take immediate action because we are outside his comfort zone & not a true threat, we are tolerated! But get inside that 100yd realm & closer depending on the wind & good cover so we are not spotted & start calling at his cows aggressively with these sounds I described & all hell can breakout! Now you are a THREAT! This can & in most cases will get the Herd Bull to see RED & he will "react to the situation"-----Same applies if we got between a bull & his cows, no matter the circumstance, as long as you are close & the wind is in your favor with that good cover you can now confidently & effectively attempt to call a bulls cows away, the herd bull will not like it at all & he doesn't want any of them leaving him & come your way so he comes straight at the intruder to force him out of the area! This happens to the herd bull all the time so it's nothing unusual for him to deal with. Represent this Satellite bull in a believable manner & you too will have many golden opportunities at the herd bull through calling & more importantly through the use of bull sounds!

Practice these methods at home, watch elk videos or the outdoor channel & see these actual sounds being used by the elk themselves as they sound off coming to a hunters cow calling & all the other things talked about here. A bulls sounds do not change if he's calling a lone cow his way or he's trying to call cows away from a herd bull, it's all the same to them!

And yes, challenging the Herd Bull is another "option"--this is a different sound used though by bulls, in essence you are questioning a real bulls dominance & his right to keep & breed the cows he has! I've used both many times but find Calling His Cows Away to be absolutely deadly!!!

ElkNut1
 
Thanks for taking the time to post this. Great info in there.

I haven't called in too many heard bulls, but have called in quite a few bulls over the years. What has worked for me is usually something like this...

I try to fool the bull into thinking a bull (me) has slipped into his comfort zone and swiped a cow or two from him. I move in close and then bugle and use a hyper hot cow call, to make him think I've taken a cow from him, or one that was going to him after being 'bugled' in. Most of the time, what ever bull it is will come in on a string...

I wish moose were this challenging to call :)
 
Thank you ElkNut1. I am working now on my bull sounds. Two years ago, I ran a big guy off. Twice.????
I saved and printed a copy of your 'book' to try this season, or for that next encounter. Again, many thanks.
 
Glad to see Elknut over on this forum.I have alot of your dvd's and the playbook.I'm in the middle of reading the playbook for the millionth time right now.
i wish I would have had your products from day one of my elk hunting.by far the best elk hunting book in print,IMO.I ALWAYS learn something from every one of your posts
 
I'm excited to be living in elk country again!

Very much looking forward to September.

Thanks for taking the time to share this info with us.
 
Great info Elknut1 but I'm with Randy I am not the greatest caller in the world and get mixed responses but have herd bulls come with a less intimidating calls. A couple of years back while I was crawling through the timber trying to set up and ambush my selected bull during archery season - one of you big bugler let off with a very intimidating call and my bull answered you back and then packed up his girls and went over the mnt not to be seen again. 20 min later the two callers walked by my stand wondering where the elk were. So I guess it works both ways.

Ron
 
Guys thanks! I'm more than happy to share any info that I can, if it helps out great, there's no doubt that all elk hunters can learn from one another & none of us will ever know it all! The elk are the greatest teachers, if we listen to them we will learn!

Big Fin, RJH & others who have called in hunters via the bugle, well join the club! (grin) If you cow called in a hunter would you stop cow calling? Good question huh! (grin) Of course you wouldn't, so you shouldn't let your bugling cease either, calling in hunters occasionally will happen but just shrug it off, it's a non issue! We do our best to hunt areas with the less pressure, it's not always possible so we will try to use other sounds that require less volume but can still have the same effect on all elk when we know other hunters are within earshot of the louder sounds! Heh, it's OTC Hunts, we all have to deal with them!

RJH, Yes, bulls use many sounds as do cows to convey their feelings & thoughts for the moment! As hunters part of our growth in becoming a better than average elk hunter & caller is understanding what we're hearing from the elk! It's far more important to understand their language than it is to know how to make all the sounds elk make, although it's completely possible to do so if ones have the desire!

Bulls will commonly use Location or Advertising Roars or Bugles to draw attention to themselves in hopes in drawing cows their way, I mentioned this one above. Bulls will try to out bugle one another from various locations in their cause, this is especially noticed as a cow or cows near estrus. You will experience less bugling activity outside this time when no cows are nearing estrus!

Bulls will use what I call Round-Up Bugles, this is seen or heard when a bull feels his harem is threatened by an intruder bull who is coming his way in an effort to advertise himself to the cows there! The then herd bull can in many situations avoid a confrontation & put distance between this bull or another hunter representing another bull.

Bulls will use a high pitched short scream to call cows from another bull, this same sound can be heard from bulls if he's separated from his cows via predator or man & tries to re-group them. The difference between the two is he's very repetitive in his bugle when calling his scattered cows back together.

Then there's Tolerating Bugles! This is where a bull is giving a a short controlled scream with a low growl at the end of his low volume scream. This sound is used when a herd bull is being flanked or harassed by a lesser satellite who is circling the herd in hopes of stealing a stray cow or two. This herd bull may see or smell him depending on where this satellite is. This is a warning sound to the satellite to keep his distance. The herd bull will not physically approach a satellite bull at this time with distance between them but will tolerate him instead as long as he stays back!

Ever sit a waterhole or wallow & have a bull whether alone or with cows bugle his way towards it? He's giving off a short location bugle wanting to know if another bull is presently there! As a hunter your best bet is to say nothing! Don't throw a wrench into the equation & possibly turn him away from coming in. If you cow call or give off a medium sized bugle to attract him the opposite can happen, point is he's already on his way in so do not deter him, he's just vocally wanting to know if the coast is clear!

Then there's Glunks, Tending Glugs, Nervous Grunts, Is There Anyone there Bugles? Yep the list goes on. Knowing why & when elk use them & being able to identify each of these sounds & others will only make us better elk hunters!

RJH, I can about guarantee you from your description of what happened when these guys bugled & the bull eventually moved off with his cows that what you heard in return from the real bull was a Round-Up Bugle, it's a short scream with a growly lip bawl to it at the end. He will give this sound two to three times inside 60 sec to 90 sec. This is what a bull will use when gathering his cows together for a possible escape. If the hunters bugled again or even 3 times as they moved towards the bulls bugles then that would just make the herd bull commit & turn into a runner with his harem to avoid confrontation. If the hunters would've recognized that bugle as such, they could have stop calling & rushed towards that bulls position as fast as they could with good cover & the wind in their favor. If it was possible to get into range with no calling then do it! If not get inside 80yds & give that short scream or 2-3 cows mews & an instant short scream right over the mews. This is what a real bull will commonly sound like as he tries to re-direct the real bulls cows his way. This can piss off the real bull & he will now charge your position to push you away so as not to attract his cows your way.

Understanding what you're hearing can make or break an encounter, it's that important!

ElkNut1
 
Welcome to Hunt Talk and OYOA Paul. Some good guys here... some serious elk killers like you and Jr and your other compadres. I always enjoy your responses and always listen to your cd's come August. Very entertaining and educational!
I will anxiously await the results of your Montana hunt this year!
 
Paul I'm curious as to what you refer to as glunking? I've heard a gob of different elk sounds but the one that has baffled me the most I included on this video clip. We have heard this sound quit a bit and they only make it while tending the cows. It actually sounds real close if you were to pop your lips together. Kind of like if you were to put chap stick on and smack you lips. We've tried replicating this sound by doing just that rather than smacking your grunt tube with an open palm. It's more high pitch than by doing the grunt tube method. I will say that we don't hear this every year but lately the last 2 or 3 we hear it a lot. Never by smaller bulls but almost always big bruisers with cows. I always assumed it was glunking but have heard even other sounds that were similar but not the same. This is footage my friend took the day before the opener in 09. Who says that elk aren't rutting until the 3rd week:D Turn your volume up when the bull turns and heads down the road. I've seen it up close and their mouths aren't moving. It must come from the throat.


http://www.bowhuntelk.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=529
 
Lawnboy, very good footage there! Now all I want to know is where in the world do you find elk by a road???? (grin) I've never had that happen!!!! I could get used to it though! (grin)
Here's some info on Glunking & Tending Glugs I've shared in the past, hope it helps out! Oh, Bulls can make this sound both by palpating their throats & slapping their tongues against the roof of their palates. I've not personally had a bull demonstrate this for me at pointblank distance but this is recognized by leading Game Biologist! Until I see differently I'll take their word for it! (grin)


Glugs & a glunks are used by bulls at different times. They sound very similar but are in fact different just as a grunt sounds similar to a chuckle but have 2 different meanings entirely! Grunts are meant for intimidation or warning & chuckles are an invite or gathering together sound used by bulls. Chuckles would be heard most frequently when you're cow calling a bull & he gives you a short scream followed by chuckling. Grunts are not heard at this time as bulls do not challenge or fight cows!

Here's where they differ! Tending/Rutting Glugs are only used by bulls when in close to cows as he courts them, these are cows generally in his harem! As they near breeding you will both see & hear him nestling up to these cows or cow literally making body contact as he smells them & rubs the side of his body against their sides & back. At this time the bull does not use glunking, he uses glugs. I've seen & studied elk for years & have never heard this sound used for collecting cows or inviting others to him or the established harem, you will also notice at these times that this group is staying right there in the same spot during this ritual, the bull is not moving to different locations.

On the other hand Glunking is used for a variety of reasons. Too, note that when glunking is used it's rarely ever used by itself as are glugs. A bull can & normally will glunk, scream, chuckle, pant, rake trees brush & give off cow mewing in any random order. He may use 2 of these together or 3-4 different sounds depending on his urgency & level of excitement! I've watched on many occasions bulls licking the air as they glunked around their nearby harem as well as them coming into our very excited or pleading cow calls, I believe they are actually trying to smell & taste the air as they glunk & come in excitedly with their heads held high on approach to see if they can pick up the desirable estrus taste or scent!

Bulls Glunk for dominance or representing dominance to both impress & collect cows & is usually reserved to the more dominant bulls in the area. Cows choose what bull they want to be with, they are not ball & chained to a specific bull. As bulls glunk they do this in an effort to show superiority, strength & who they are, this will attract cows & make them feel secure as well as help them to recognize who he is. Another bull can come in & literally try to call a bulls cows from him with cow mews, glunks, short screams & raking, this is in an effort to pull the herd bulls cows from him or at least one or two without actually fighting the bull for them! This can attract cows to this new bull & check him out, this is why this new bull would start raking, it's a displaying action to show these cows who he is & what he has to offer, this is their way of picking up dates! (grin) Bulls will also glunk when moving his cows from danger or from one place to another especially in heavy cover, this gives the group direction & they recognize his glunk that this is their bull or leader.

Another sign & scenario to listen for to tell the two apart is that glunking bulls will not only add other elk sounds with it but it's very common for them to be moving around or covering a bit of distance while using it as they seek out or are looking for another cow.It is no uncommon to slip in on Rutting elk & hear this glunking coming from two different bulls as they both try their best to represent dominance & win the cows over! Tending glugs on the other hand are generally used when the bull & his cows are in an area where they are staying in the same spot as he tends to them or courts them such as in or near the bedding or feeding area. Rare would be if two bulls were using tending glugs in the same herd in normal hunting areas.

As you can see here there is a true difference here in glunking & glugging. All one has to do is hear these sounds or any other sounds with these & it can help determine which sound is being used. This can paint a picture in your minds eye as to what's happening without ever visually seeing what's happening in heavy cover!

We use these types of sounds every year in selective encounters. Just imagine moving in on a herd & getting into 50yd-80yd in good cover & wind & start with a couple bull mews a short scream & glunks, what do you think the herd bull will do? He'll go ballistic!!! You'd better be ready with an arrow nocked because he will storm you fast!! No way will he allow any cows to head your way, instead he will be the defense mechanism & get between the cows & you, there's no slipping around trying to get your wind he will come at you on a string! It's a true slap in the face for another bull to come right into his area & call his cows from him! This questions his dominance & the right to keep & breed his cows! It's game on!!! (grin)

For the record I have quite a bit of footage of both sounds being used by bulls under the varying situations that support my conclusions, plus we use them every year with great success in addition to others! Bulls on the ground are a great indicator!!!

Here's a link to Tending Glugs that I have, the photo is of my grandson Tanner with his this years elk, it's his 2nd one at 12.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC6zvY8FMYI


ElkNut1
 
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