Black bear hunting with in Montana-- HB 144
- Thread starter houndy65
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wyoming556
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None of the above. Sometimes it gets old listening to Montanans like Greenhorn preach how perfect it is there and how all other states are screwed up. Just pointing it out to Greenhorn that there were plenty of gays in MT just like everywhere else in this fine country. I'm to poor to live in MT, couldn't afford to buy a house anywhere close to Bozeman.
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Rat Fink
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Dinkshooter
Well-known member
Me thinks someone lost their marbles.
wyoming556
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I don't live in MT, you do.
wyoming556
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Losing marbles?
So your buddy Greenhorn says Montana laws are perfect becasue they dont allow bear baiting, hound hunting for bears, crossbow hunting seasons, muzzleloader hunting seasons, or allow gays.
Which is different from so called "dumb" laws in Idaho, Wyoming, and Colorado for example that allow some of those things like hound hunting, baiting, muzzleloader seasons, and crossbows during archery season.
And I say to him yea but you do actually have gays, lots of hippies, and laws that allow legal marijuana use (which states like Idaho and Wyoming don't allow).
And now you think I lost my marbles?
You guys like to voice your opinions about laws in other states but the moment someone bashes a law in yours you get personal. If you can dish it out you should be able to take it as well.
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oldman357
New member
I don't see what's wrong with dope smoking gays. vegetarians well that's not something I like at all but hey it's a free country.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
HA!
dustinf
Active member
Do you have any plans Friday night?
El Jason
Well-known member
All that stuff is legal in Washington. Heck, in some places it's more the norm.
Rat Fink
Member
TTT. They are at it again, now with the inclusion of Bait and Hounds. SB 397 is up for a hearing in senate fish and game Tuesday March 26. email the committee and give them your thoughts.
http://leg.mt.gov/css/Sessions/63rd/legwebmessage.asp
http://leg.mt.gov/css/Sessions/63rd/legwebmessage.asp
Here is the best analysis I have read regarding the use of hounds and baiting for hunting bears in Montana. People have to take into account that Montana has a large, viable grizzly population and we have both spring/fall bear seasons, Very few states have this combination.
Comments on the use of hounds and baiting to hunt black bears.
Here are some comments relative to the issue of hounds and baiting in harvesting black bears. In essence, there are no good reasons why either are necessary or should be allowed.
1. Public Perceptions. Most members of the general public perceive the baiting of bears as unsporting and that it does not constitute fair chase. While some “hunters” may support such a proposal, overall, public support for hunting would diminish. To non-hunters, this would be further evidence that hunters are lazy and unethical. The use of hounds is also viewed by many to be unethical. Anti-hunting organizations frequently use videos showing the shooting of bears in trees as proof that all hunting is unethical and barbaric.
2. Public Safety. We currently euthanize bears that are habituated to human foods for good reason. To alter that and say it is OK for hunters to bait bears is clearly hypocritical and would give the public the impression that it is OK for everyone to feed bears. Problem situations involving habituated bears would increase. Grizzly bears would also become habituated at these sites, further threatening public safety and necessitating their removal from the population. Members of the public who unknowingly encounter bait sites are at risk of serious injury from a black or grizzly bear.
3. Bear Reproduction. Proponents of baiting often cite its use as a tool to reduce total bear numbers. However, prolonged and extensive baiting can actually increase bear numbers. In essence, it becomes supplemental feeding. Wisconsin is a good example, where baiting begins in April and there is no limit on the number of bait sites or the type of bait used. Bear numbers are currently at record levels in that state. Research has clearly shown that reproductive success in bears is closely tied to accumulated fat within females. An increase in calories results in an increase in cub production, greater litter frequencies, and earlier ages of reproduction.
4. Bear Health. Most states and provinces that currently allow baiting allow the use of human foods that are high in processed sugar (e.g. doughnuts, granola bars, gummy bears, etc.). While not aware of any studies addressing this issue, one would think there would eventually be issues with tooth decay, heart disease, etc. Serious health issues have been clearly identified in the feeding of these types of foods to domestic dogs, which are bears closest relatives. Again, the practice of feeding bears large quantities of these types of foods raises serious ethical questions.
5. Cub Orphaning. Proponents often cite baiting as a tool to reduce the taking of females with cubs. However, research in Minnesota by Lynn Rogers in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s showed that females with cubs often stashed or hid their cubs when entering areas with artificial foods such as garbage dumps or bait sites. He believes they did this in response to other bears that would likely be at these sites, especially large males that might kill their cubs. Hunters utilizing hounds and shooting bears from trees will undoubtedly have a very difficult time discerning lactating females. It is doubtful the cubs will always be with the mother when they are pursued, especially during the spring season. Montana’s current hunting season structure in which bears are observed behaving naturally prior to being shot offers a much greater opportunity to observe cubs than either baiting or hounds.
6. Separation of Family Groups. The use of hounds during the spring season would invariably result in the separation of cubs and mothers. Young cubs failing to rejoin their mothers will die. Females with cubs are already severely stressed due to lactation requirements. Pursuit by hounds will only stress them further.
7. Hunter Safety/Grizzly Mortalities. Hunters pursuing black bears with hounds are at very high risk of cornering a grizzly or even a family group of grizzlies. This situation could quickly spiral out of control as the hunters try to pull off their dogs. They could easily be forced to kill a grizzly to protect themselves and/or their dogs. Frightened dogs may run back to their owners for protection with a grizzly in hot pursuit. This recently happened near Trego and resulted in a severely wounded grizzly.
8. The Use of Bait and Hounds is Unnecessary. Black bear hunters in Montana currently enjoy one of the longest hunting seasons in any of the states or provinces, with both spring and fall seasons available. Even without the use of bait or hounds, research has shown that the current hunting season structure in Montana has the potential to seriously impact total black bear numbers. This is due to the fact that the reproductive rate of black bears in Montana is quite low, with females failing to mature and produce cubs until they are 5 or 6 years old. Poor berry crops may severely restrict cub production for several consecutive years. Hunters wishing to be more successful have other tools they can try, such as the use of predator calls. The use of a predator call is far more conducive to controlling bears around private land and residences than hounds, nor does it create habituated bears like baiting. Also, it allows hunters to more easily discern females with cubs than either hounds or baiting.
Comments on the use of hounds and baiting to hunt black bears.
Here are some comments relative to the issue of hounds and baiting in harvesting black bears. In essence, there are no good reasons why either are necessary or should be allowed.
1. Public Perceptions. Most members of the general public perceive the baiting of bears as unsporting and that it does not constitute fair chase. While some “hunters” may support such a proposal, overall, public support for hunting would diminish. To non-hunters, this would be further evidence that hunters are lazy and unethical. The use of hounds is also viewed by many to be unethical. Anti-hunting organizations frequently use videos showing the shooting of bears in trees as proof that all hunting is unethical and barbaric.
2. Public Safety. We currently euthanize bears that are habituated to human foods for good reason. To alter that and say it is OK for hunters to bait bears is clearly hypocritical and would give the public the impression that it is OK for everyone to feed bears. Problem situations involving habituated bears would increase. Grizzly bears would also become habituated at these sites, further threatening public safety and necessitating their removal from the population. Members of the public who unknowingly encounter bait sites are at risk of serious injury from a black or grizzly bear.
3. Bear Reproduction. Proponents of baiting often cite its use as a tool to reduce total bear numbers. However, prolonged and extensive baiting can actually increase bear numbers. In essence, it becomes supplemental feeding. Wisconsin is a good example, where baiting begins in April and there is no limit on the number of bait sites or the type of bait used. Bear numbers are currently at record levels in that state. Research has clearly shown that reproductive success in bears is closely tied to accumulated fat within females. An increase in calories results in an increase in cub production, greater litter frequencies, and earlier ages of reproduction.
4. Bear Health. Most states and provinces that currently allow baiting allow the use of human foods that are high in processed sugar (e.g. doughnuts, granola bars, gummy bears, etc.). While not aware of any studies addressing this issue, one would think there would eventually be issues with tooth decay, heart disease, etc. Serious health issues have been clearly identified in the feeding of these types of foods to domestic dogs, which are bears closest relatives. Again, the practice of feeding bears large quantities of these types of foods raises serious ethical questions.
5. Cub Orphaning. Proponents often cite baiting as a tool to reduce the taking of females with cubs. However, research in Minnesota by Lynn Rogers in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s showed that females with cubs often stashed or hid their cubs when entering areas with artificial foods such as garbage dumps or bait sites. He believes they did this in response to other bears that would likely be at these sites, especially large males that might kill their cubs. Hunters utilizing hounds and shooting bears from trees will undoubtedly have a very difficult time discerning lactating females. It is doubtful the cubs will always be with the mother when they are pursued, especially during the spring season. Montana’s current hunting season structure in which bears are observed behaving naturally prior to being shot offers a much greater opportunity to observe cubs than either baiting or hounds.
6. Separation of Family Groups. The use of hounds during the spring season would invariably result in the separation of cubs and mothers. Young cubs failing to rejoin their mothers will die. Females with cubs are already severely stressed due to lactation requirements. Pursuit by hounds will only stress them further.
7. Hunter Safety/Grizzly Mortalities. Hunters pursuing black bears with hounds are at very high risk of cornering a grizzly or even a family group of grizzlies. This situation could quickly spiral out of control as the hunters try to pull off their dogs. They could easily be forced to kill a grizzly to protect themselves and/or their dogs. Frightened dogs may run back to their owners for protection with a grizzly in hot pursuit. This recently happened near Trego and resulted in a severely wounded grizzly.
8. The Use of Bait and Hounds is Unnecessary. Black bear hunters in Montana currently enjoy one of the longest hunting seasons in any of the states or provinces, with both spring and fall seasons available. Even without the use of bait or hounds, research has shown that the current hunting season structure in Montana has the potential to seriously impact total black bear numbers. This is due to the fact that the reproductive rate of black bears in Montana is quite low, with females failing to mature and produce cubs until they are 5 or 6 years old. Poor berry crops may severely restrict cub production for several consecutive years. Hunters wishing to be more successful have other tools they can try, such as the use of predator calls. The use of a predator call is far more conducive to controlling bears around private land and residences than hounds, nor does it create habituated bears like baiting. Also, it allows hunters to more easily discern females with cubs than either hounds or baiting.
This an SFW bill. The sponsor is a big SFW guy. SFW is putting out all kinds of information and requests to get this bill passed. They think their little world of how they want things is how the entire state should operate, even though a huge majority have rejected all that SFW stands for.
SFW doesn't give a damn that Montana has been just fine with spot and stalk bear hunting for many decades. They don't care what archery elk hunters feel about having their seasons heavily disrupted by hounds chasing bears during archery elk season.
To the hound hunting groups, not SFW - You need the support of the rank and file hunter on many issues related to hound hunting for lions. If you want to lose the support of the rank and file hunter on issues where you will need him, the way SFW is going about this is a good way to lose that support.
SFW is the new guys on the block and they use their Utah money to try and change things here in Montana. Montana is backwards, according to them. There are plenty of places for improvement, but I have yet to see and SFW idea that would be considered improvement, this bill being another good example.
Since most of the SFW supporters of this bill live close to Northern Idaho, they can pack their bait piles, their hounds, and go to Idaho and in some cases, shoot two bears. If it works for Idaho hunters, that is good for the Idaho guys. This is Montana, not Idaho.
I am typing this slowly for the benefit of the SFW crowd -
THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF MONTANA HUNTERS HAVE SHOWN THEY DON'T WANT BLACK BEAR HUNTING TO CHANGE.
I did not know we had so many problems here in Montana that it required SFW to come and save us from ourselves. Please, go back to where you came and take your ideas with you.
Personally, I don't give a crap about baiting or how anyone decides to hunt bears, until it starts affecting the way people have hunted bears for the last thirty years. I don't hunt fall bears. I hunt archery elk in the fall. Last thing I care to have is a pack of hounds chasing a bear across the mountain when I am trying to hunt elk.
I enjoy hunting public lands without the turf wars other states have when bait piles start popping up on public land. Even though everyone knows it is public land, bait piles create a sense of possesiveness. Anyone who lives in an area that allows baiting knows what I am talking about.
One more problem the public hunters of Montana do not need.
My biggest issue with SFW and their continued attempts to change everything to their small way of thinking is that they cannot accept that they and their fringe positions are in the minority. This bill has already been killed once this session. The majority of people don't want it. Most people want to keep their existing bear seasons and continue hunting bears and elk the same as they have for decades.
Get over it, or go home.
Think I will post a thread of the recent SFW email reply they distributed to the masses supporting restrictions on acquiring public lands. Another great move on their part.
The sooner SFW is removed from this landscape, the better off hunting and wildlife will be in this state. And folks wonder why I am keen on seeing the Utah wildlife welfare model come to an end. It is that Utah model that funds the franchises in other states, to the detriment of rank and file hunters.
SFW doesn't give a damn that Montana has been just fine with spot and stalk bear hunting for many decades. They don't care what archery elk hunters feel about having their seasons heavily disrupted by hounds chasing bears during archery elk season.
To the hound hunting groups, not SFW - You need the support of the rank and file hunter on many issues related to hound hunting for lions. If you want to lose the support of the rank and file hunter on issues where you will need him, the way SFW is going about this is a good way to lose that support.
SFW is the new guys on the block and they use their Utah money to try and change things here in Montana. Montana is backwards, according to them. There are plenty of places for improvement, but I have yet to see and SFW idea that would be considered improvement, this bill being another good example.
Since most of the SFW supporters of this bill live close to Northern Idaho, they can pack their bait piles, their hounds, and go to Idaho and in some cases, shoot two bears. If it works for Idaho hunters, that is good for the Idaho guys. This is Montana, not Idaho.
I am typing this slowly for the benefit of the SFW crowd -
THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF MONTANA HUNTERS HAVE SHOWN THEY DON'T WANT BLACK BEAR HUNTING TO CHANGE.
I did not know we had so many problems here in Montana that it required SFW to come and save us from ourselves. Please, go back to where you came and take your ideas with you.
Personally, I don't give a crap about baiting or how anyone decides to hunt bears, until it starts affecting the way people have hunted bears for the last thirty years. I don't hunt fall bears. I hunt archery elk in the fall. Last thing I care to have is a pack of hounds chasing a bear across the mountain when I am trying to hunt elk.
I enjoy hunting public lands without the turf wars other states have when bait piles start popping up on public land. Even though everyone knows it is public land, bait piles create a sense of possesiveness. Anyone who lives in an area that allows baiting knows what I am talking about.
One more problem the public hunters of Montana do not need.
My biggest issue with SFW and their continued attempts to change everything to their small way of thinking is that they cannot accept that they and their fringe positions are in the minority. This bill has already been killed once this session. The majority of people don't want it. Most people want to keep their existing bear seasons and continue hunting bears and elk the same as they have for decades.
Get over it, or go home.
Think I will post a thread of the recent SFW email reply they distributed to the masses supporting restrictions on acquiring public lands. Another great move on their part.
The sooner SFW is removed from this landscape, the better off hunting and wildlife will be in this state. And folks wonder why I am keen on seeing the Utah wildlife welfare model come to an end. It is that Utah model that funds the franchises in other states, to the detriment of rank and file hunters.
brownbear932008
Well-known member
We had bear/hound seasons in my home state of Virginia. This is a very touchy subject. I am very pro hunting don't take me wrong. But this is the one season I wish the state would do away with. Way to many issues with hounds in the woods while people are deer hunting ect. and the bears are very elusive from being chased all the time. Numerous complaints of trespass to retrieve dogs ect. ect. ect. Just a bad deal. The only positive thing I see in it is the bears taken can be picked through as to only take mature boars and such. Most of the bear hunters I know that does this will run bears all year almost under the disguise of "Coon Hunting" also. Just a bad deal all around I'd be totally against it. The bears dont have a chance in these hunts in my opinion.
Point Creep
Well-known member
This is a great bill for the outfitter who want to offer Montana bear hunts. It'll really simplify things for lazy guys with more money than time. Vote for this one if you want bears you're hunting in their natural state to be pulled down to a bait site where he can be arrowed by an amazing hunter from Baltimore.
RUT JUNKEY
Well-known member
ding ding winner!
