Buzz-Be careful what you work for. How about joining the greenies to close that 360000 acres to all vehicle travel except mountain bikers that's in your other thread? How can your skinny ass hunt that property and get your game out? You might just pick the wrong bedfellows and end up gettin' poked in the butt. Or are you guys saying you can hunt a parcel that size on foot?
ATV's out of control
- Thread starter milshooter
- Start date
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ringer,
Go out and buy some hiking boots, get off the couch, quit whining and maybe you can get in good enough shape to hunt on foot....
You've been corrupted by your ATV and the dark side...
Go out and buy some hiking boots, get off the couch, quit whining and maybe you can get in good enough shape to hunt on foot....
You've been corrupted by your ATV and the dark side...
cjcj
New member
ElkGunner said:
Gunner yes i do think you have been wrong about the [offroad game retrieval] issue....at times... not always but you were very stubborn as was Buzz/Ithaca... You guys know that I never said you could go "anywhere" in the state or "everywhere" to get your game... but the fact is there are millions of acres where this is legal... and that is where i hunt... but you seem to want to keep the "lawyer" twist/slant....going... by posting half of the regs and regs that said you can`t go offroad>[not the issue]......but you "avoided" the regs that pertained to offroad game retrieval and i feel you knew better. your good at research and maybee you already had seen some of the stuff Cfree had posted.... I think those links that Cfree posted pretty much settled this issue [game retreival] yes there are exceptions [both ways] but i have no problem admitting that there are... it seems you don`t want to...thats the differance. we should have put this issue to rest about a month ago. I.M.O.
Ten Bears
New member
I applaud MTMILLER for both his clarification of the issue, and admitting he had made his statement on the written rules without clarification from the management on the ground. An honest assessment, thank you MTMILLER.
BUZZ/EG, you 2 have made your own damning statements, and now are trying to back out while still pointing fingers at others and saying "your wrong, your wrong" (childish). Admit your error. YES, Buzz, things may well change in the future, and then they may change again further in the future (and on and on and on). However, we are discussing TODAY.
BUZZ/EG, you 2 have made your own damning statements, and now are trying to back out while still pointing fingers at others and saying "your wrong, your wrong" (childish). Admit your error. YES, Buzz, things may well change in the future, and then they may change again further in the future (and on and on and on). However, we are discussing TODAY.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ten beers,
Pull your head out, unclear regulations dont diminish the intent of the regulations...
Which is going to be LOUD AND CLEAR real soon...bye-bye ATV's going offroad to retrieve game on the Tonto NF.
Pull your head out, unclear regulations dont diminish the intent of the regulations...
Which is going to be LOUD AND CLEAR real soon...bye-bye ATV's going offroad to retrieve game on the Tonto NF.
JoseCuervo
New member
Ten Brews,
After you find somebody that is at least a 4th grader, have them read you the lady's E-Mail. |oo
If you look at "Currently, he can go off highway to retrieve BIG game as defined by AZGF" that is the statement that references the AZGF's permission/authority to allow travel on State Trust lands. No where in the AZGF's brochure does it say you can go off road on FS land. If it does, pleas cite the refernence.
Again, it all goes back to the need to check with the land managers.
I am not even sure what is "unclear".
After you find somebody that is at least a 4th grader, have them read you the lady's E-Mail. |oo
If you look at "Currently, he can go off highway to retrieve BIG game as defined by AZGF" that is the statement that references the AZGF's permission/authority to allow travel on State Trust lands. No where in the AZGF's brochure does it say you can go off road on FS land. If it does, pleas cite the refernence.
Again, it all goes back to the need to check with the land managers.
I am not even sure what is "unclear".
Ten Bears
New member
I'm sure you 2 can't see the meaning for the words. If you need further clarification please feel free to contact the person listed above. However, I believe the intent of the statement is that the TNF allows off road travel for big game retrieval as it is defined in the AZGF regulations (unless posted otherwise). This is another case of ATVophobics twisting the intent of the statement. Do you need to pull you heads out to breath, or do you have a breathing tubes installed?
I saw nothing unclear about the statement either. Maybe you could talk with MTMILLER, he actually claims to have spoken with the people down there.
If you need further clarification please feel free to contact the person listed above. However, I believe the intent of the statement is that the TNF allows off road travel for big game retrieval as it is defined in the AZGF regulations (unless posted otherwise). This is another case of ATVophobics twisting the intent of the statement. Do you need to pull you heads out to breath, or do you have a breathing tubes installed? I saw nothing unclear about the statement either. Maybe you could talk with MTMILLER, he actually claims to have spoken with the people down there.
JoseCuervo
New member
Hey Ten Brews,
I assume you were not able to find the reference in the AZGF's brochure that says they have authority on TNF lands?
I assume you were not able to find the reference in the AZGF's brochure that says they have authority on TNF lands?
JoseCuervo
New member
Yeppers, there is no problem in AZ with the Fat-Assed ATV Crowd....
Rough Riders
Some ATV users are running amok through Southern Arizona landscapes
By TIM VANDERPOOL
Tim Vanderpool
ATV vandals invade public and private property.
An angry man in frumpy khakis peers into a rutted wash. This desert beneath Panther Peak was once pristine, he's saying, abuzz with wildlife and hikers. But today, it's a just another tormented landscape on the city's battered fringes--a badlands where crumbling banks, shredded cactus, toppled palo verdes and shattered Bud bottles scream of ATV freaks run amok.
Over several years, the angry man has cajoled and compromised and tried to be cool. But he's got no patience left for off-roaders who storm these northern flanks of the Tucson Mountains. It's not enough, he says, that motorized morons careen around state trust land and the Saguaro National Park. Now they're even ripping across his own Picture Rocks-area homestead with roaring engines and intimidating glares.
But fighting back exacts a price: Fearing retaliation, he asks that his real name not be used. We'll call him Don. "One of my neighbors told some kids on quad-runners to stay off his land," Don says. "Then the kids' parents came back and threatened him. We're talking about trashy people."
Like a scene from The Wild Ones, all-terrain honchos have nearly commandeered this wildcat subdivision sprawling across unincorporated northern Pima County. And no one seems able to do much about it. The Sheriff's Department doesn't have enough manpower to post someone onsite. Even when deputies spot errant off-roaders, they're rarely caught outright. "One deputy tore his radiator out chasing after them," says Don. "That's how bad it gets."
Even other riders are exasperated by the mayhem. "Groups like ours advocate responsible use of ATVs," says Kent Nicholls, president of the Southern Arizona Off-Road Coalition. "The problem is that a small minority out there don't respect nature or the considerable impact they can have on others."
But the Sheriff's Department hears about that impact often, says Lt. Mike Sacco. "Unfortunately, apprehension is difficult, in terms of staffing and equipment. Whenever we receive a call, we dispatch people and try to identify who the riders are, and try to apprehend them that way, rather than chasing them down at the time. Once we get a hold of them, we can educate them about trespassing and off-highway vehicle laws."
For its part, the Arizona Land Department has even fewer patrolling abilities. "We oversee more than 3 million acres (of state trust land)," says spokesman Richard Hubbard, "and our enforcement staff is small."
Even the feds seem stymied, as off-roaders go beyond state land buffers and into Saguaro National Park. Although the state property is within park boundaries, "We have no jurisdiction on the state land," says Chief Ranger Bob Love. "It's a huge concern."
To stop the damage, Love hopes to spark talks with Arizona officials in the near future. "We'd like to get an MOA (Memorandum of Agreement) with them," he says, "so we could begin assisting with enforcement."
Complaints from apprehensive Picture Rocks residents are also common in the offices of Sharon Bronson, who represents them on the Pima County Board of Supervisors. "And it's not only in Picture Rocks," she says. "It's also going on the southeast side, where supervisors get calls, but callers want to remain anonymous because they fear retribution."
The bottom line, Bronson says, is a shortage of warm bodies. "In the urban, unincorporated areas of Pima County, we simply can't enforce (ATV restrictions), because we'd have to post a sheriff's deputy out there 24 hours a day. And that just isn't feasible."
Instead, she's pushing for stricter noise ordinances and a registration program to rein in ATV miscreants. Program fees would go toward creating additional, legitimate off-road recreation areas in Pima County.
Unfortunately, this problem isn't limited to a troubled swath of Sonoran Desert. It's been building since the modern ATV's progenitor first blasted across the American landscape in the 1950s, and people were suddenly able to pierce wilderness areas with gas-powered ease. In recent years, those machines have grown remarkably sophisticated, powerful and popular: National ATV sales grew from 350,000 in 1990 to 1.4 million in 2000.
According to the Arizona State Parks department, nearly 17 percent of Pima County households include off-road vehicle users. And 6 percent of Arizonans headed to Pima County for their off-road fun in 2003. Throughout a given year, off-roaders directly or indirectly contribute more than $400 million to the local economy.
Not surprisingly, these numbers have fueled a financial stimulus to look the other way. And they've left land managers struggling to keep up--under confusing signals from above. Since first coming to office, the Bush administration has fought to open more roadless areas to motorized vehicles. Symbolically, it also quickly reversed a Clinton plan to completely ban snowmobiles from Yellowstone National Park by this year. Instead, President Bush and congressional Republicans have squeezed into the current spending bill a measure that continues allowing up to 720 raucous snowmobiles daily into the nation's iconic park.
Fighting that kind of momentum is a daunting task for well-meaning government officials, and for regular folks like Don. "You know," he says, wiping a furrowed brow, "I used to try to work with these ATV guys, but they blew it. No more compromise. I've had it, and I'm not backing down."
Rough Riders
Some ATV users are running amok through Southern Arizona landscapes
By TIM VANDERPOOL
Tim Vanderpool
ATV vandals invade public and private property.
An angry man in frumpy khakis peers into a rutted wash. This desert beneath Panther Peak was once pristine, he's saying, abuzz with wildlife and hikers. But today, it's a just another tormented landscape on the city's battered fringes--a badlands where crumbling banks, shredded cactus, toppled palo verdes and shattered Bud bottles scream of ATV freaks run amok.
Over several years, the angry man has cajoled and compromised and tried to be cool. But he's got no patience left for off-roaders who storm these northern flanks of the Tucson Mountains. It's not enough, he says, that motorized morons careen around state trust land and the Saguaro National Park. Now they're even ripping across his own Picture Rocks-area homestead with roaring engines and intimidating glares.
But fighting back exacts a price: Fearing retaliation, he asks that his real name not be used. We'll call him Don. "One of my neighbors told some kids on quad-runners to stay off his land," Don says. "Then the kids' parents came back and threatened him. We're talking about trashy people."
Like a scene from The Wild Ones, all-terrain honchos have nearly commandeered this wildcat subdivision sprawling across unincorporated northern Pima County. And no one seems able to do much about it. The Sheriff's Department doesn't have enough manpower to post someone onsite. Even when deputies spot errant off-roaders, they're rarely caught outright. "One deputy tore his radiator out chasing after them," says Don. "That's how bad it gets."
Even other riders are exasperated by the mayhem. "Groups like ours advocate responsible use of ATVs," says Kent Nicholls, president of the Southern Arizona Off-Road Coalition. "The problem is that a small minority out there don't respect nature or the considerable impact they can have on others."
But the Sheriff's Department hears about that impact often, says Lt. Mike Sacco. "Unfortunately, apprehension is difficult, in terms of staffing and equipment. Whenever we receive a call, we dispatch people and try to identify who the riders are, and try to apprehend them that way, rather than chasing them down at the time. Once we get a hold of them, we can educate them about trespassing and off-highway vehicle laws."
For its part, the Arizona Land Department has even fewer patrolling abilities. "We oversee more than 3 million acres (of state trust land)," says spokesman Richard Hubbard, "and our enforcement staff is small."
Even the feds seem stymied, as off-roaders go beyond state land buffers and into Saguaro National Park. Although the state property is within park boundaries, "We have no jurisdiction on the state land," says Chief Ranger Bob Love. "It's a huge concern."
To stop the damage, Love hopes to spark talks with Arizona officials in the near future. "We'd like to get an MOA (Memorandum of Agreement) with them," he says, "so we could begin assisting with enforcement."
Complaints from apprehensive Picture Rocks residents are also common in the offices of Sharon Bronson, who represents them on the Pima County Board of Supervisors. "And it's not only in Picture Rocks," she says. "It's also going on the southeast side, where supervisors get calls, but callers want to remain anonymous because they fear retribution."
The bottom line, Bronson says, is a shortage of warm bodies. "In the urban, unincorporated areas of Pima County, we simply can't enforce (ATV restrictions), because we'd have to post a sheriff's deputy out there 24 hours a day. And that just isn't feasible."
Instead, she's pushing for stricter noise ordinances and a registration program to rein in ATV miscreants. Program fees would go toward creating additional, legitimate off-road recreation areas in Pima County.
Unfortunately, this problem isn't limited to a troubled swath of Sonoran Desert. It's been building since the modern ATV's progenitor first blasted across the American landscape in the 1950s, and people were suddenly able to pierce wilderness areas with gas-powered ease. In recent years, those machines have grown remarkably sophisticated, powerful and popular: National ATV sales grew from 350,000 in 1990 to 1.4 million in 2000.
According to the Arizona State Parks department, nearly 17 percent of Pima County households include off-road vehicle users. And 6 percent of Arizonans headed to Pima County for their off-road fun in 2003. Throughout a given year, off-roaders directly or indirectly contribute more than $400 million to the local economy.
Not surprisingly, these numbers have fueled a financial stimulus to look the other way. And they've left land managers struggling to keep up--under confusing signals from above. Since first coming to office, the Bush administration has fought to open more roadless areas to motorized vehicles. Symbolically, it also quickly reversed a Clinton plan to completely ban snowmobiles from Yellowstone National Park by this year. Instead, President Bush and congressional Republicans have squeezed into the current spending bill a measure that continues allowing up to 720 raucous snowmobiles daily into the nation's iconic park.
Fighting that kind of momentum is a daunting task for well-meaning government officials, and for regular folks like Don. "You know," he says, wiping a furrowed brow, "I used to try to work with these ATV guys, but they blew it. No more compromise. I've had it, and I'm not backing down."
Ithaca 37
New member
Here's the part to notice: "Not surprisingly, these numbers have fueled a financial stimulus to look the other way. And they've left land managers struggling to keep up--under confusing signals from above. Since first coming to office, the Bush administration has fought to open more roadless areas to motorized vehicles. Symbolically, it also quickly reversed a Clinton plan to completely ban snowmobiles from Yellowstone National Park by this year. Instead, President Bush and congressional Republicans have squeezed into the current spending bill a measure that continues allowing up to 720 raucous snowmobiles daily into the nation's iconic park.
Fighting that kind of momentum is a daunting task for well-meaning government officials, and for regular folks like Don. "You know," he says, wiping a furrowed brow, "I used to try to work with these ATV guys, but they blew it. No more compromise. I've had it, and I'm not backing down.""
I hope there's enough concerned people in AZ to shut down all the off road riding. I doubt it though, seeing the attitude of some AZ hunters who think they have to drive everywhere to retrieve game.
Fighting that kind of momentum is a daunting task for well-meaning government officials, and for regular folks like Don. "You know," he says, wiping a furrowed brow, "I used to try to work with these ATV guys, but they blew it. No more compromise. I've had it, and I'm not backing down.""
I hope there's enough concerned people in AZ to shut down all the off road riding. I doubt it though, seeing the attitude of some AZ hunters who think they have to drive everywhere to retrieve game.
cjcj
New member
Gunner/ Ithaca you guys truly cannot be stupid enough to link lawbreaking idiots tearing up the desert... to a hunter who goes to pick up an elk.. or are you?
Ithaca 37
New member
cjcj, Unfortunately, hunters do tear the hell outta public lands with their ATVs and pickups. When they are going to retrieve game is when they're probably at their worst. I wish it weren't true.
cjcj
New member
Not in Arizona...Most hunters here are very carefull when they go offroad to pick up their elk/buffalo/etc... I have observed seen them, and helped them....
Too bad thats not the case in your area.
Too bad thats not the case in your area.
BuzzH
Well-known member
cjcj, that pretty funny, thank god you're able to supervise every off-road retrieval in the state of Arizona...
Never happens in AZ, yeah right.
You call BS on other people???????????
Never happens in AZ, yeah right.
You call BS on other people???????????
cjcj
New member
Well i don`t say "every" like your stupid referance...but the "fact" is i see a hell of alot more than you do..[AZ[....and thats a simple fact lost on an "intellectual hillbilly" from Chitland Switch Wyoming.
BuzzH
Well-known member
cjcj,
The average AZ hunter couldnt handle a real elk hunt in MT, CO, or WY...thats why you only draw a tag every 15 years in AZ...you have to keep them elk tame enough so you can load them in the truck where they fall. Good quality hunting experience...
Glad you get to "tag" along with buddies on cow hunts...oh, lucky you.
The average AZ hunter couldnt handle a real elk hunt in MT, CO, or WY...thats why you only draw a tag every 15 years in AZ...you have to keep them elk tame enough so you can load them in the truck where they fall. Good quality hunting experience...
Glad you get to "tag" along with buddies on cow hunts...oh, lucky you.
cjcj
New member
BuzzH said:
Well Lil Buzz, I don`t speak for "all" Arizona hunters...glad to see you are the "self proclaimed" spokeswoman for the rest of the states though. Funny ass quote for a guy who posts so many pic`s of dead cows on the internet...Damn Buzzy could you tell us again how hard i is to kill those "rare elusive cows" or how much work it is to get an over the counter tag. Lets get real here 1/2 the stuff you kill [antlerless] can be found near any paved highway...the bare facts are you live where there are more tags and critters...than there are hunters [hence over the counter]...I wish we had the amount of chances that you guys in other states have...but we don`t so deal with it. When i do get a rare tag in AZ i "always" fill it [if i want to] to bad you don`t believe anyone should have a personnel choice [typical lib] but i absolutley have no problem how a hunter Man/Woman/Child/ handicapped or healthy kill and bag their game [as long as its legal] and they feel good about their hunt...then i am happy for them.. and you also.. hunt the way you want, and enjoy it...but you quit trying to tell others that your way is the only way...just makes you look bad I.M.O....A closed mind is a very sad thing.. hope you get better. |oo
BuzzH
Well-known member
cjcj,
The reason we have more tags, and OTC tags, is because we have less access. The areas with easy access are like all of AZ...1:100 draw odds.
Ever stop to think about that?
I doubt it...too busy being a smart ass and pouting about not being able to hunt. Personally, I wouldnt waste my time living in a state that didnt have OTC bull elk, buck deer, and antelope permits.
Oh, and I do kill cow elk on my cow/calf tag...its great living in a state where you can kill 2 elk a season (one bull tag, one cow tag), which is more than most AZ hunters will hunt in 20 years.
If hunting is so easy in WY, come on up and show us how its done, peewee. Theres plenty of permits available 100% draw odds for 2 tags, one at a reduced price, you can draw every year, and theres plenty of game right by the highway...I dont understand why you pass up such a slam dunk????Why fight crappy draw odds when you could hunt every year???
Fact is, you're all mouth...
The reason we have more tags, and OTC tags, is because we have less access. The areas with easy access are like all of AZ...1:100 draw odds.
Ever stop to think about that?
I doubt it...too busy being a smart ass and pouting about not being able to hunt. Personally, I wouldnt waste my time living in a state that didnt have OTC bull elk, buck deer, and antelope permits.
Oh, and I do kill cow elk on my cow/calf tag...its great living in a state where you can kill 2 elk a season (one bull tag, one cow tag), which is more than most AZ hunters will hunt in 20 years.
If hunting is so easy in WY, come on up and show us how its done, peewee. Theres plenty of permits available 100% draw odds for 2 tags, one at a reduced price, you can draw every year, and theres plenty of game right by the highway...I dont understand why you pass up such a slam dunk????Why fight crappy draw odds when you could hunt every year???
Fact is, you're all mouth...
cjcj
New member
All keyboard Maybe....once again you make a fool out of yourself..your not going to tell me its hard to kill an antelope in Wyoming are you?..still eatin crow...but just can`t handle it...someday you might "grow up"
BuzzH
Well-known member
cjcj, no antelope hunting is not tough, getting a good one is all about having enough brains to judge them correctly and not working the trigger on a dink-a-lope.
You can buy 2 elk tags up here in Wyoming as a NR...thats kind of what I thought a studly AZ fat ass would be interested in...I guess not. I'd already guessed antelope would be way too easy...I mean antelope tags are a dime a dozen in AZ and all...I'm sure you've killed a bunch and have vast amounts of experience hunting them.
Give us your expert advice on antelope, I'm ready to see if you're a hunter or a talker...
You can buy 2 elk tags up here in Wyoming as a NR...thats kind of what I thought a studly AZ fat ass would be interested in...I guess not. I'd already guessed antelope would be way too easy...I mean antelope tags are a dime a dozen in AZ and all...I'm sure you've killed a bunch and have vast amounts of experience hunting them.
Give us your expert advice on antelope, I'm ready to see if you're a hunter or a talker...
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