Ass Grass or Cash

[ELKCHSR]

Your right Tyler, some of them are, and yes I was... Very good...

I recognize the cheet grass, wildrye (didn't know what this was, but do know what rye looks like), but not sure which would be the Wheatgrass or blue bunch...

One of the grasses will get a seed head on it that resembles a cat tail head and the grass itself can get to be 6 plus feet tall....

Thanks much for the rest of the info...

 

[1_pointer]

Picture #2 is crested wheatgrass or a variant of it.

Picture #6 looks like it could be foxtail

Picture #3 of the second post could be bluebunch wheatgrass

 

[ELKCHSR]

Thanks a million...

The bluebunch Wheatgrass is pretty prevellant out in some of the areas I wander in...

In the next couple weeks, I will have some more up when they come into season and ID features are easier to make out.

I don't think I will be able to get any pics of Moosies grass crops, unless I rob them off the internet some where, we can't get those varieties to grow up here as well as it seems they can in Boise...

Thanks again for some names to put on some of the pics...

 

[BuzzH]

Picture # 1 looks like smooth brome to me, very common.
Picture #2 crested wheatgrass
Picture #3 ?
Picture #4 meadow foxtail
Picture #5 are some sort of rush
picture #6 foxtail barley
pcture#7 cheatgrass
picture #8 either meadow foxtail or timothy
picture #9 wildrye
picture #10?
picture #11 poa species probably poa pratensis

The picture of the sedge, I'd guess its either Carex Nebraskensis or Carex Rostrata.

Grasses are one big pain in the ass to identify because most times of the year they're either dead or dont have seed heads. Its usually not too hard to identify them to Genus level.

That being said, grass species present on sites (or lack of species) can tell a pretty good tale as to what's going on with your range conditions.

A good portion of those species pictured can be evidence of range sites that are in some state of decline...

 

[ELKCHSR]

These are all around the Warm Springs Ponds, off the Warm Springs Exit...

The soils from what I can tell are really very poor and it is what has come back from the over use of days gone by...

Some of the grasses are as tall as my P/U.

I have noticed that the white tails were pretty slim pickings a few years ago in this area and now are becoming more prevalent.

The antelope are finally coming back in this area also, not down to the ponds, but in the hills around here.

When I first moved into this area at the end of the 90's, it was hard to find any speed goats any where until you got over the hill by White Hall, but now they are spread out quite a bit, nothing like the area looks like it should be, but they see to be coming back.

There is quite a bit of spurge and knapweed around here, but I have also noticed where these larger grass species are, the noxious weeds aren't quite as prevalent.

I suppose there are more than the two very large varieties of grasses out here, but I haven't taken notice of others...

Thanks for the info Buzz, I am going to take yours and 1P's points and study them a little more...

What are the grasses that would show some thing on a healthier note???

There is one I see in some of the wetter areas at the higher elevations which has a very wide blade and grows pretty thick, but I have never seen it much more than about 18" or so.

It doesn't seem to like standing wet ground, but does very well in damp soil...

Thanks again…

 

[1_pointer]

Smooth brome...never saw it, but makes since.

Couldn't they also be recovering from decline? I know some of the areas that I've surveyed in the last few weeks have some undesireable species, but the trend is still upward. I will defer to Buzz on this as I don't know a whole lot about the veg in places that wet.

Quite simplistic, but to determine the health, you need to know what species should be there and in what amounts. Then find out what's there and compare. A

 

[ELKCHSR]

Thanks...

I like this kind of learning as you go research, it is extremely interesting...

I found a third tall clump type grass tonight that has a different head on it, I think I have figured a better way to get the charactoristics of the seed heads in a picture to show up better...

Thanks for the info guys, its great..

 

[BuzzH]

Pointer,

You're right on, it could be a range thats in some sort of recovery as well. Hard to tell unless you have previous data, of course you can always speculate and look for other signs. I also over-simplified things just a touch. The main point being that just because its green doesnt mean its healthy or desirable...something John Q. Public doesnt really understand in many cases.

As to smooth brome, the seed heads are pretty distinctive. Another thing to look for is the "W" or "M" shaped blade constrictions right above where the blades leave the main stem of the grass.

 

[1_pointer]

The main point being that just because its green doesnt mean its healthy or desirable...something John Q. Public doesnt really understand in many cases.

I totally agree! Also, just because it's pretty or animals eat it doesn't mean it's all that good either. Undesireable species are good indicators that things weren't all that great in the past or maybe even the present.

Thanks for the heads up on smooth brome. Closest I've seen around here is mountain brome, but haven't seen too much of that. Now cheatgrass...

Elkchsr- I'd suggest you pick up a couple of plant ID books and then key a few of the species out yourself. This way even if you don't know a future plant, you can get close and maybe figure out why it's there. You'll have to ask around for one's that are good for the local area.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Tyler

I've got a stack of ID books 20" deep and they only touch on grasses, I would assume for the same reason as Buzz stated above, they are hard to ID so most people writing books don't want to do any thing with them.

They have only touched on 2-3 species of seges and bull type rushes combined.

I did run across a tech book on grass's once though and unless you really already knew basically what you were looking at, that ID book wouldn't be of much use...

Plus for most, grasses are just grasses and in their eyes, there is only one species of grass in the whole world and thats the kind they walk on in their yards...

 

[ELKCHSR]

I've been doing some extensive studing of the grasses in this area to find what is supposed to be here and what isn't...

This topic is becoming some thing in the grass biologists world a thing of $$$ and most all the rest of the lesser grasses are not posted much or any thing about...

I suppose unless I actually talk to one of the guys around here that is supposed to know what he's talking about, it will be nigh to impossible to find the truth...

So as it sits, it will have to be left to the fact, poor soil indicators or not, what ever is here, is here for good reason, we should be thankful in this area for having what we have and any thing is better by far, than nothing, which some areas are almost devoid of many or any plants because of the high pollutants still in the soil...

Conclussions...

Although hundreds of grasses were native to the North American continent, only a few have the potential to become important forage, biomass, or turf crops. Switchgrass, big bluestem, and eastern gamagrass have the most potential as forage and biomass fuel crops.

Indiangrass may also be important as a forage crop. Buffalograss will become an important turf grass particularly in arid regions of western states.

It is doubtful if any of the native North American grasses will be developed into a perennial grain crop. Their current seed yields are currently only about a tenth of that of grain crops and even if their seed yields could be improved, substantial problems would have to be overcome in marketing sny new crops.

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr,

You need to do some more studying...in particular grasses of Palouse Prairie regions for Western Montana. whats here is not here for a good reason.

Theres plenty of native grasses that provide excellent forage for both wildlife and cattle. For example, Pseudoragnaria Spicatum (blue-bunch wheatgrass), Festuca Scabrella (rough fescue), Festuca Idahoensis (Idaho Fescue). These grasses in particular are VERY important for wildlife. They also dont do real well with extended over-grazing...and didnt evolve with heavy grazing pressure.

Big and little blue-stem arent found in Western Montana...tall and short grass prairie types. Theres some small areas in Eastern Montana that still have largely native grasses that havent been grazed...square butte near Great Falls is one place. Some prairie types do better with grazing pressure...in particular high intensity/short duration grazing.

What we have now is not healthy in a majority of situations. Most ranges that recieve any type of extended grazing at all have seen significant reductions in native grasses and increases in undesirable native species, noxious weeds, or introduced species.

I'm not going to spoon-feed you your mush...take a good range ecology course, the University of Montana has an excellent Range Professor.

 

[ELKCHSR]

LOL Buzz...

No one asked for that much info, but it is really very most appreciated...

Just a few names and I can do the rest of the searching, or a particular book would be of big help...

I do very well to be self taught on most things, then ask a question when I get stuck...

The collage is a little far to commute to right now, and have too much other learning on my plate at this particular moment...

I do appreciate the help though...
…Thanks...

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr,

Being self-taught is fine, but you'll never learn as much, as fast, as you can from other people.

The job of "collage" is not to teach you everything you need to know...its to set the groundwork and get the basics out of the way (which in this case, you still dont have).

The important part is what you do with the "basics" from there. Many dont learn anything else, most don't even get a job in the field they studied.

I've been fortunate and for the last 18 years I've worked in my field. I've continued to learn both on my own, through observation, and from other professionals I work around.

If you're serious...not "interested"...but serious, the only way to fully understand these things is to deal with them for years and communicate with like-minded professionals.

Also, if you could be more specific with your questions...it would be easier for me to answer them or direct you toward an answer (if one exists).

One good book for plants is one written by Hitchcock...vascular plants of Montana. About the best plant ID book I've purchased (it was about $60 7-8 years ago). Its more than just a plant ID book...goes into details about the plants as well...uses, forage potential, increaser/decreaser, etc. etc. etc.

Pretty dry unless your interested in plants.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Thats the answer I was looking for... Thanks and will get on with it...

I do have the basics...

2 years in Tree studies...

3 years of basics in hort studies...

25 years in observational studies...

18 years in the business of Arborist Work...

Most of these overlapped as I worked in the trade, but all are legitimate...

Of course you are probably still going on my first writitings on this board, unfortunatly the collages I went to didn't worry to much on the writing end of things, but mainly on hands on applicational studies.

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr,

Sorry, but you dont have the basics. People that understand the basics of Range Ecology, plant associations, etc. dont make statements like "whats here is here for good reason and something is better than nothing". Most spend considerable time trying to figure out why "whats here now is here". You're not even sure what native plants are supposed to be in YOUR area, what percentages, how much has been lost, whats caused the losses, etc. Those are the basics you need before you can even begin to START thinking management. Management is even more complicated...with politics, special interests, ownerships, public input, etc. etc. etc.

I've talked in length with people who have spent a life-time studying, learning, and working in Natural Resources. Most have more questions now than when they started.

 

[Horn Seeker]

Around Missoula right now, especially on the infamous Mt. Jumbo, there are just these beautiful, lush "forests" of these pretty green plants that have a yellowish flower on them. Other areas have these pretty purple flowered plants and a few other areas have a cool yellow flowered plant that is different than the one on Jumbo. The biomass per acre has got to be UNREAL!!! Especially this year, as Elkchaser was saying much of the grass gowth is chest high!!

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/invasive/images/euphoe01.jpg

http://www.mtweed.org/Identification/Knapweed/knapweed4.jpg

http://www.oneplan.org/Images/weedPic/Dalmat2.jpg
Recognize those Buzz? I'm sure you remember them well.

 

[ELKCHSR]

"whats here is here for good reason and something is better than nothing".

I would tell you why I posted that, but you may not give out any thing else if asked, so will keep the reasoning to myself, Ithaca knows though if you would care to ask him why I posted it...

Until I get my own spread, I wasn't looking at Management in a form to the extent you are thinking, I don't have a problem getting "native" seeds from other areas though and distributing them into areas that studies have shown they belong as I go, or should be native to the areas I frequent... Johnny Apple seed sort of way... and do pull some noxious weeds in places they seem to be getting a start if it looks like it will make even a little difference, (such as Knap Weed and Spurge).

The seeds planted today can spread and grow if given enough time, or at least re-establish themselves, or die back out in the process. I'm not worried about the quick and instant fix, just to see things slowly go back on their own, but as a disclaimer, they must be the right ones...

Since I have noticed a big difference in some of the range management practices by some out here, at least the plants may have a chance of getting a foot hold even if they don't get to be full blown as they once were... Some may say this is dangerous, or irresponsible I suppose, but it’s not any different than some one getting paid to do the same exact thing, the education is in place before it is implemented and they are given a chance to re-establish...

And yes, the questions never cease here, that is why they are being asked...

Thanks Horn Seeker...

Missoula gets what it deserves...

There are so many people in that community who want to save the planet, they only need to get off their drums and butts in unison and go eradicate them...

But thanks for showing an interest in this topic, even if it’s only to see if you can be smart and condescending...

That is what the education and the questions are about, so those plants are slowed down or out right eradicated, but it won't if people stay clammed up on what they know, or sarcasm is implemented so as to brow beat, or shame others into being quiet on these subjects, that’s some of the reasons the problems are here in the first place...

 

[BuzzH]

Hornseeker, sure I do. Leafy Spurge, knapweed, and dalmation toadflax.

There are a couple good things about the infestation of leafy spurge on Jumbo. It brings awareness to noxious weeds, and its a nice close place to try different approaches to controling it.

When I left Missoula, they were trying sheep and goats to control it. You could see various densities of weeds and the treatment areas pretty easily.

Even though knapweed is widespread and a problem, in areas that arent grazed to dirt each year, and over time, its being out-competed by native grasses. The knapweed problem is not nearly as severe as it used to be.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Even though knapweed is widespread and a problem, in areas that arent grazed to dirt each year, and over time, its being out-competed by native grasses. The knapweed problem is not nearly as severe as it used to be.

This is some thing of interest I noted a month or so ago from one of my cross country trips, places that were absolutely saturated with knapweed when I was little walking thru some of the parks is now one plant in the area of mass plants...

When I was young, it was fun to go thru with sticks beating the plants as boys are apt to do, now it is interesting to look back in retrospect at how the areas have changed into a larger bio-diversity of life...

I would also add that even though it isn't my interest to 'make money' or a living at this particular trade, I am out in it an awful lot and it doesn't hurt for the biologists to have an extra set of eyes and ears looking at areas they may have over looked.

That is one of the reasons rare or extinct species of concern come back or are noticed, because of interested individuals who happen to be at the right place at the right time with the right knowledge happen to stumble on them...

Not saying I ever will, but one never knows…