A Navy Veteran’s perspective on racism

[VikingsGuy]

Look lets not get personal ok? Im not bragging about anything and hello McFly; autocorrect; or not. IQ is in fact a great determiner of ones potential success and is the only tool we have available to us. Why do you think we give kids aptitude tests early in life? So we can focus resources and effort on the gifted as we should. You cant expect a kid with a 160 IQ to flourish in a classroom with the rubes now. Intelligence is acquired knowledge; intellect is the capability to understand it. Yes I think, therefore I am.

I hate pulling high IQ kids out of the classroom. It sends all the wrong messages to everyone. I would rather see the 160 IQ kid in the class helping the 100 IQ kids with the tougher problems. You learn more teaching than being the student in most cases. The kid also learns empathy and how to work with others. I have refused to let my kids be pulled away from the very people they will share society with later. In fact, after years of hiring and managing professionals I would rather have the hard working b+ student from a state school over a top ivy leaguer who has been pampered, pandered and praised their whole life. High IQ tracks in the schools are NOT for the kids - they are for the ego of the parents and the teachers in those programs. I like high IQ track programs about as much as I like police and teacher’s unions.

 

[fmnjr]

Do voters and legislators have line item control over police budgets, or do they allocate funding and the department has spending discretion?
Can a city council say you get X dollars, you must spend Y dollars on uniforms and pistols, you can't spend any money on these items, and then this much money needs to be spent on this type of training?
It's my understanding that police are very unionized, what role do the unions play?

Do the answers to these questions vary by municipality county, town, state? For instance do all the police departments in Mass, or Michigan work the same way or does the Detroit PD operator in a completely different manner than the Ann Arbor PD?

What are the differences or similarities, with regard to the aforementioned questions between municipal PDs, sheriffs, and state troopers.

De-funding pops up a lot and I am regrettably woefully ignorant on bureaucratic structure of police forces.

Here in Vegas, Metro is funded through sales and property taxes.

It's a big deal here, sales tax is like 8.75% and they get a pretty good bite out of it, not sure how much they get out of the property end of it but I can look it up pretty easily.

We definitely do NOT have line item control over budget items.

The police organization is pretty strong here as unions have pretty much always had a presence due to Uncle Vinney back in the day.

If you think about, the realization dawns on you that each town, muni, county, etc. must operate differently simply due to the scale of the local economy.

De-funding is a terrible idea, the concept is so bad it is hard to know where to start to complain about it.

If your local PD gets defunded, who are the lefties going to get to do their gun-grabbing for them?

Almost anyone, and I mean anyone, could do their thinking for them and do a better job.

 

[Irrelevant]

I hate pulling high IQ kids out of the classroom. It sends all the wrong messages to everyone. I would rather see the 160 IQ kid in the class helping the 100 IQ kids with the tougher problems. You learn more teaching than being the student in most cases. The kid also learns empathy and how to work with others. I have refused to let my kids be pulled away from the very people they will share society with later. In fact, after years of hiring and managing professionals I would rather have the hard working b+ student from a state school over a top ivy leaguer who has been pampered, pandered and praised their whole life. High IQ tracks in the schools are NOT for the kids - they are for the ego of the parents and the teachers in those programs. I like high IQ track programs about as much as I like police and teacher’s unions.

Sorry man disagree. The problem is that when those high IQ kids get bored they stop trying or even worse, start acting out. Been there, did that, ended up worse for it, and now see it happening to my kids. You absolutely can't have classes that teach to the bottom and expect the top to flourish any more than you can expect someone who's struggling with long division or accounting to get calculus.

 

[Howie]

Who decides what is positive change and what is not? Not only is this contradictory, it’s also hypocritical.

You are a piece of work my friend, good luck in life.

 

[El Jason]

You are a piece of work my friend, good luck in life.

Attitudes like yours are antithetical to the American government. It's supposed to be a government of the people and for the people. There is opportunity to run for office, be a part of the process, and effect change. This change can even include amending our Constitution. Positive change for one group may very well be negative change for another (cough, slavery, equal civil rights, women's suffrage). It's not a government of the people and for the people, unless we don't like your ideas and then you can GTFO.

If you believe that makes me a piece of work, you'll need the good luck much more than I will.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Sorry man disagree. The problem is that when those high IQ kids get bored they stop trying or even worse, start acting out. Been there, did that, ended up worse for it, and now see it happening to my kids. You absolutely can't have classes that teach to the bottom and expect the top to flourish any more than you can expect someone who's struggling with long division or accounting to get calculus.

I can share competing anecdotes of my own experiences and those of my kids - and of a number of friends who disagreed with my take at the time until later when they saw how it played out with their own kids. So, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one.

 

[VikingsGuy]

De-funding is a terrible idea, the concept is so bad it is hard to know where to start to complain about it.

De-funding means a lot of different things to different people so it lacks any real definition to test, challenge and ultimately agree or disagree with.

If de-funding means zero police, zero armed officials to protect against even the most violent criminals then 98% of folks would agree it is a really dumb idea.

If de-funding police means taking 25-35% of the staffing (and associated spend) and have trained unarmed counselors/community engagement officers respond to 911 calls over minor neighbor property line complaints, vagrancy complaints, some kid stealing chapstick at a convenience store, then that may make some real sense. Any well run organization separates tasks and gives them to the best trained person that can do the job. We have armed officers doing a million little things that do very little to increase our safety and make very little use of their actual law enforcement training but can raise the friction with local communities. The communities aren't happy, the cops are happy. Maybe time to try something different.

 

[Zach]

Never read a story about the fire department, ambulance service, municipal water and sewage, local road and bridge crews or similar municipal services having these issues so seems right on target to me.

Who sits higher up on the budget totem pole? That's where my accountability would start. Not sure about LEO's in your area, Police chiefs are appointed where I'm at, by a politician. At least the Sheriff has to be elected.

Try to enjoy your weekend without feeling to much guilt. I'm going to a rodeo, thank the Lord we are finally opening up. Maybe I'll see if there are any cowboys of color and get their thoughts.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Who sits higher up on the budget totem pole? That's where my accountability would start. Not sure about LEO's in your area, Police chiefs are appointed where I'm at, by a politician. At least the Sheriff has to be elected.

Try to enjoy your weekend without feeling to much guilt. I'm going to a rodeo, thank the Lord we are finally opening up. Maybe I'll see if there are any cowboys of color and get their thoughts.

In Minneapolis multiple mayors and multiple police chiefs have tried to make progress, but the union has a near perfect record of blocking any change or the removal of any problem officers from the street. So, today in Minneapolis the person with the most actual authority over implementation of changes is the police union head - a little googling will tell you all you need to know about that. And he is not elected by the citizens and is accountability free. Drop the union status and then we will see if the chief and mayor can actually do their job. If not out they go.

Have fun at the rodeo - you going as a spectator or competitor?

As for guilt, I don't have any, I will sleep well - and folks aren't asking you to have any either (unless there is something you are telling us )

 

[Irrelevant]

If de-funding police means taking 25-35% of the staffing (and associated spend) and have trained unarmed counselors/community engagement officers respond to 911 calls over minor neighbor property line complaints, vagrancy complaints, some kid stealing chapstick at a convenience store, then that may make some real sense. Any well run organization separates tasks and gives them to the best trained person that can do the job. We have armed officers doing a million little things that do very little to increase our safety and make very little use of their actual law enforcement training but can raise the friction with local communities. The communities aren't happy, the cops are happy. Maybe time to try something different.

How does that not equate to 25-35% fewer LEO responding or similarly longer response times? I think anyone who's had to call the police only ever wants faster responses and more officers. I don't disagree with the general idea being floated out there, but our sheriff deputies are not constantly dealing with mental health or similar community-esk issues 24/7, and when they're not actively dealing with those they are able to provide faster responses. And that is what I struggle to support.

Also, let's be clear, some communities are unhappy. Some are quite happy.

 

[VikingsGuy]

How does that not equate to 25-35% fewer LEO responding or similarly longer response times? I think anyone who's had to call the police only ever wants faster responses and more officers. I don't disagree with the general idea being floated out there, but our sheriff deputies are not constantly dealing with mental health or similar community-esk issues 24/7, and when they're not actively dealing with those they are able to provide faster responses. And that is what I struggle to support.

Also, let's be clear, some communities are unhappy. Some are quite happy.

I don't have real numbers in front of me, but by way of example, assume 50% (and I have heard anecdotally it is higher) of police calls in Minneapolis are for minor neighbor squabbles, complaints about homeless, complaints about loitering, littering, petty thefts, non-armed domestic disputes, etc. Then add in them co-responding to every 911 call whether police issues are present or not, and minor traffic ticketing stuff. So, if other people took all those you would only need half the traditional cops. If you kept 60% of them you could even improve response times/service. At the union level this is why this gets blocked - fewer traditional cop jobs. But a proper functioning public safety program should not be designed to maximize the most specialized, most trained and most lethal resources to serve every little thing as a jobs program.

FWIW, I don't think you can directly compare a rural sheriff's dept workload with large urban police department workloads as it relates to ratio of high impact and low impact activity.

 

[Rainer]

This is probably one of the best threads out there, it's quite interesting.

From a outsider looking in, theres a group of people who are oddly quiet lately. Where's the radical NRA and 2A people? For the last 20 years they've been preaching about a tyrannical government infringing on their rights. Worried about the police and military on the streets. Well, their wish was answered and they were cowering in their homes. They protested with arms just because of some stay at home orders and wearing masks. Wheres Wayne LaPierre when the peaceful protesters were attacked by the police and National Guard?

 

[fmnjr]

De-funding means a lot of different things to different people so it lacks any real definition to test, challenge and ultimately agree or disagree with.

If de-funding means zero police, zero armed officials to protect against even the most violent criminals then 98% of folks would agree it is a really dumb idea.

If de-funding police means taking 25-35% of the staffing (and associated spend) and have trained unarmed counselors/community engagement officers respond to 911 calls over minor neighbor property line complaints, vagrancy complaints, some kid stealing chapstick at a convenience store, then that may make some real sense. Any well run organization separates tasks and gives them to the best trained person that can do the job. We have armed officers doing a million little things that do very little to increase our safety and make very little use of their actual law enforcement training but can raise the friction with local communities. The communities aren't happy, the cops are happy. Maybe time to try something different.

I would reply that de-funding generally means what it implies, an intent to reduce the amount of dollars PDs can use to have officers in the field. There's no getting around the fact that the term has only become popular in relation to the murder of GF. I am vehemently against bad policing, bad cops, etc., but reducing the number of cops by de-funding, redistribution, reassignment (or whatever it will be called) is a very, very bad idea. Criminals will always be there, looking for the chance to come after well behaved citizens. If de-funding does happen, making sure one is armed up and trained in self defense will be become an even hotter priority than it already is.

 

[diamond hitch]

I have avoided this one for maybe too long but here goes. I was born, raised and graduated on the reservation. Of my senior class there were maybe three of us white kids while the rest were part indian at some level. At no time did I ever see any level of racism. When I went to school in Fargo, one of the fraternity brothers was black (first one I ever met). Hell of a nice guy! We all got along without a thought of racism.

In the early 90s, I read an article on a black world war II war hero from Georgia who was living in Boise. He was asked what brought him to Boise after the war. He said he found he liked to hunt elk on one side but found no one cared about his dark complection in the west but there was no change in Georgia after the war than from before the war. He prefered to be treated as an individual and could only achieve that in the west.

A striking point I did experience in North Dakota was once I asked a very pretty girl for a date but was told that her father only allowed her to date other Dutch boys and that was in the 70s. This racism thing has been developed somewhat by conditioning over centuries and likely will take that long to change. Some of it is related to clashing cultures or just group differances. My wife and one cousin married two scots while the rest of family found acceptable croation spouses - three generations into the US.

I don't have a solution because I don't have a problem however I am still cautious when in groups of like minded individuals (mormons, catholics, vets, etc) of which I am not part.

Cops - differant issue. To start with maybe better psycological screening before hiring. Some people don't have the temperment for it. Maybe a closer watch on personality changes over time. A type of ptsd caused by conditioning over time while working in a war zone. Since there are records of black on black problems (cop to perps) it may not be racism but a type of a conditioned response created by repeating experiences.

Thank god I don't live where these problems are everyday but my hunting partner is a county sheriff and for him hunting is a critical diversion for sanity from the conflict, drugs and public stupidity. Thank you for your patience.

 

[BuzzH]

Wheres Wayne LaPierre when the peaceful protesters were attacked by the police and National Guard?

Well, I can only make an educated guess, but here goes:

1. Buying his 3rd vacation home possibly.
2. Trying on some fancy suits on Rodeo Drive.
3. Firing and laying off more NRA staff to keep his bloated salary.
4. Helping his "intern" find an apartment.

 

[Panda Bear]

I dont have the answers that is for sure.

But as mentioned before the harassment I received in college was brutal. In my case it was three fold. We were poor, so I was laughed at because of my clothes. I was harassed daily because I was an Indian. And it is hard for men to understand the fear a female can feel just walking back to your apartment after dark. Crude, brutal. scary comments and actions.

so speaking only for myself. Thank God for the police --city and campus --when I was in college. I dont just believe, I know, they saved me a few times.

and now back home, I have nothing but admiration for the RCMP. They have a tough job. We dont want them to make any mistakes and if they do, dont just fire them, jail them. But when we have problem we want them there to assist us asap, please !

I dont understand how what is happening in Seattle, can be a good thing. I bet the owners of those business's who are having their business robbed, burned and destroyed wish the police would not have let that happen.

Does that old saying fit here. Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater ?

I also need to add a disclaimer, as I am not a U.S. citizen, so have no say in what happens in Seattle or the U.S.. We have our own problems up here, that is for sure.

 

[Shangobango]

Reading through this thread reinforces my thoughts that a whole lot of issues in this country could be minimized if people would just "love thy neighbor".

I hate even using the terms black people and white people because we are all just people but for the purpose of this discussion: black folks down here probably participate in outdoor activities at a higher rate than a lot of places. It is still at a much lower rate than white folks. Most of my black friends that participate do a lot of fishing and dog related hunting such as rabbits and raccoons. Also it seems that ATV riding is taking off among black people down here.

I have often times wondered why black participation in outdoor activities is not higher. When discussing this with my black friends it has become clear that they believe lack of access due to not having someone experienced to get the youngsters started seems to be a common theme. I guess that is true no matter what color someone's skin might be though.

You would think that would be a relatively easy fix with a little effort made to give more youngsters more opportunities to enjoy the outdoors.

Maybe I am oversimplifying.

 

[Shangobango]

This is probably one of the best threads out there, it's quite interesting.

From a outsider looking in, theres a group of people who are oddly quiet lately. Where's the radical NRA and 2A people? For the last 20 years they've been preaching about a tyrannical government infringing on their rights. Worried about the police and military on the streets. Well, their wish was answered and they were cowering in their homes. They protested with arms just because of some stay at home orders and wearing masks. Wheres Wayne LaPierre when the peaceful protesters were attacked by the police and National Guard?

I dont give a rat's tookus about Wayne Pierre or whatever his name is, but lumping all "2A people" ,whatever that means, in to one broad group is rather ignorant in my opinion.

I'd be willing to bet that there have been a lot of "2A people" out there on the streets protesting racial injustice over the past few weeks. Probably plenty of 2A people out there looting as well. I'd also be willing to bet there are plenty of BLM supporters out there protesting too obviously and plenth of BLM people out there looting too.

This whole lumping people together in broad groups, aka stereotyping, is part of the problem not part of the solution.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Good read.

Thoughts on the killing of George Floyd

Wait before you judge. Take a deep breath. Because you can. In the wake of the murder of George Floyd, I’ve seen countless people on social media expressing their rage — not about George’s death or about the underlying problem of inequality in our country — but about looting and physical damage...

www.hatchmag.com

Good article. Thanks for posting.

 

[azelkhntr]

The crime in all this towards people of color is that now relations are even worse, not better. As an individual I don’t discriminate based on race it’s just stupid. Watching all these riots and looters one can’t help but notice the color of the vast majority of these thugs. BLM has not done the black community any favors and race relations have been sent back decades. If this is how they want to achieve “equality” they’ve failed miserably. Or perhaps not. My guess is they’re pawns in a bigger game. Prior to 2008 racism was in reality dead in America and then came the great divider. He built that by design. As far as 2A goes that argument for gun control is dead dead dead. They can’t argue we don’t need guns when we have the police while wanting to defund/disband the police right? NRA should be seeing another huge spike in memberships. Do I treat blacks differently? Yes, yes I do. When I walk down the street and see 2-3 young blacks coming towards me I make a judgement call. Remember the knockout game? That’s still going on. That isn’t racism that’s self preservation. I hope my punctuation and syntax meets the lofty standards of some.