6.5?

[ImBillT]

Not sure I understand this. You mean the slower one won't kill the animal, I guess the bullet bounce's off? Or do you mean the faster one will kill it deader? I thought the idea was to kill the animal cleanly, not deader!

Good expansion has a low velocity threshold. The one starting 400fps faster will travel considerably farther before dropping below that velocity threshold.

Decreased drop and drift make it easier to put the bullet in the right place. The one starting 400fps faster has an advantage.

If all you’re doing is shooting whitetails at 60yds from a blind, sure, there’s going to be very little difference.

Why not hunt elk with a .222 Rem? The bullet will not just bounce off. No one said a 6.5 CM with 140’s wouldn’t kill an animal. YOU said there would be NO difference between a 6.5CM and 6.5-06, which is incorrect.

 

[Don Fischer]

Good expansion has a low velocity threshold. The one starting 400fps faster will travel considerably farther before dropping below that velocity threshold.

Decreased drop and drift make it easier to put the bullet in the right place. The one starting 400fps faster has an advantage.

If all you’re doing is shooting whitetails at 60yds from a blind, sure, there’s going to be very little difference.

Why not hunt elk with a .222 Rem? The bullet will not just bounce off. No one said a 6.5 CM with 140’s wouldn’t kill an animal. YOU said there would be NO difference between a 6.5CM and 6.5-06, which is incorrect.

Decreased drop and drift I wouldn't think would make it any easier to put the bullet in the right place. What difference does it make how much a bullet may drop or drift if your a well practiced long range shooter. Judging drop and drift for a guy that's doing it in the first place should be second nature. Is there really much difference between knowing you have to hold over 18" and 2'? Your supposed to be a long range shooter! Maybe if you can't do that, you shouldn't be shooting long range in the first place! With the only rifle I have that I have shot long range with, over 300yds, I had a drop sheet taped to the stock, all I had to do was look at it and readjust the reticule. Never did figure out how to judge wind! Then again I only fooled with it at paper target's! If you really know how to shoot long range I doubt drop or drift is gonna make a difference, you simply adjust for it. More important is really long range where, as I understand it, to remain accurate the bullet must nor drop below super sonic. New ball game there but if you understand that part them velocity makes a difference. So at what velocity does the bullet fall below super sonic? It's my opinion that shooting big game at those ranges has nothing to do with hunting and everything to do with shooting! Personally I would not attempt it!

The difference between my 6.5x06 and my 6.5x55 is no where as great as you might think. The 6.5x06 is faster but with either when a well placed bullet hit's, the deer dies fairly quickly. Same outcome! If your not a well practiced shooter in the first place, get out to a point where the sighting need's adjusted for drop and likely the outcome will still be the same, a miss or a wound. Velocity at some point will help only if your are accomplished enough to know how to use it!

 

[antelopedundee]

I have several 6.5-06s and see no need for a CM, a Swede or a .264 Win mag. If I was to add another it would be a 6.5-.284 just because. No need for a Weatherby in 6.5 either.

 

[ImBillT]

Decreased drop and drift I wouldn't think would make it any easier to put the bullet in the right place. What difference does it make how much a bullet may drop or drift if your a well practiced long range shooter. Judging drop and drift for a guy that's doing it in the first place should be second nature. Is there really much difference between knowing you have to hold over 18" and 2'? Your supposed to be a long range shooter! Maybe if you can't do that, you shouldn't be shooting long range in the first place! With the only rifle I have that I have shot long range with, over 300yds, I had a drop sheet taped to the stock, all I had to do was look at it and readjust the reticule. Never did figure out how to judge wind! Then again I only fooled with it at paper target's! If you really know how to shoot long range I doubt drop or drift is gonna make a difference, you simply adjust for it. More important is really long range where, as I understand it, to remain accurate the bullet must nor drop below super sonic. New ball game there but if you understand that part them velocity makes a difference. So at what velocity does the bullet fall below super sonic? It's my opinion that shooting big game at those ranges has nothing to do with hunting and everything to do with shooting! Personally I would not attempt it!

The difference between my 6.5x06 and my 6.5x55 is no where as great as you might think. The 6.5x06 is faster but with either when a well placed bullet hit's, the deer dies fairly quickly. Same outcome! If your not a well practiced shooter in the first place, get out to a point where the sighting need's adjusted for drop and likely the outcome will still be the same, a miss or a wound. Velocity at some point will help only if your are accomplished enough to know how to use it!

A) not everyone hunts with a rangefinder.

B) Rangefinders are not perfect and neither is a persons use of a rangefinder.

C) a wind call under hunting conditions is A LOT different than at a range with wind flags set at specific locations and sighting shots allowed. The best wind callers in the world make one or two 2mph mistakes throughout the course of a match, and they have a lot more to go on than a hunter in the field.

D) a 6.5x55 is incredibly close to a 6.5-06. It’s got 10-11% less powder capacity, but because it’s nearing the limits of a 6.5mm bore the difference in muzzle velocity, particularly with normal hunting barrel lengths, is minimal at best. Compared to a 6.5CM on the other hand a 6.5-06 is usually capable of about 400fps more, and that is quite significant.

E) just staying supersonic is not enough for all bullets. A lot of the tougher bullets used on big game do best above 2400fps.

I’d have to reference my dope chart and can’t at the moment, but my current 6.5 is roughly 2” high at its peak(somewhere around 170yds) and 19” low at 400yds. That takes out an awful lot need to have things perfect in the field. You can come fairly close to that with a 6.5x55, but not with a 6.5CM. The last four MD I shot were at roughly 175, 380, 300, and 300. I aimed roughly 10” over on the 380. I killed my first elk under some less than ideal circumstances and took a shot I probably should not have taken. After doing some math, I’m fairly confident that I would not have been able to hit the animal with the 30-06 I’d planned to use. I had switched to the 6.5 due to inclement weather as my 30-06 is in a wood stock.

I’m not saying that a 6.5CM won’t kill and kill well. I’m saying that to think that a 6.5-06 over no advantages is incorrect.

I’m not an expert long range shooter. I grew up shooting a benchrest club, won some hunter class benchrest matches, and dabbled in F-Class. I had a few shoots with very acceptable results, but never won a match. There were times my equipment disadvantages were likely responsible for the difference between 1st or 2nd place and 6th or 7th, and there were times when my skill and experience was wholly to blame. Hunting and competitive shooting are very different, and due the unavoidable imperfections of range finding, angle calculation, and wind estimation, decreased drop and drift do have value to a hunter even in the 300-500yd range.


Edit: Checked my dope sheet
140gr Elite
150yds +2.0”
400yds. -13”
450yds. -19.5”
500yds. -27.5”

 

[Fire_9]

Decreased drop and drift I wouldn't think would make it any easier to put the bullet in the right place. What difference does it make how much a bullet may drop or drift if your a well practiced long range shooter. Judging drop and drift for a guy that's doing it in the first place should be second nature.

This is one of the dumbest comments I’ve read in quite a while...

 

[mtmuley]

6

This is one of the dumbest comments I’ve read in quite a while...

6.5 conversations usually bring a lot of those out for some reason. mtmuley

 

[midwesthunter]

Steve at Hammer built a 6.5 on the RUM case once. The Ultra Cat. mtmuley

If your going to build a 6.5 off a Rum case, do it off the 338 since its the shortest in the rum family, and you don't

6
6.5 conversations usually bring a lot of those out for some reason. mtmuley

This is true

 

[Addicting]

Not interested in a debate on any other calibers or bashing 6.5s. Let’s keep this discussion to the Actions and cartridges.

Just wanted to throw this back out there as some folks are doing their best to derail and force this thread further into a rabbit hole.

The original discussion was between a 6.5 PRC and a 6.5-284.

 

[ImBillT]

Just wanted to throw this back out there as some folks are doing their best to derail and force this thread further into a rabbit hole.

The original discussion was between a 6.5 PRC and a 6.5-284.

Ballistically there isnt enough difference to matter. The PRC will fit in a short action better, particularly with long bullets. Short actions with magnum bolt faces aren’t exactly all over the place. Of course if you’re buying a gun off the shelf, then PRC is going to be a lot easier to find. Also, if you’re not going to reload, ammo for the 6.5-284 Norma isn’t abundant in large part due to its similarity, but incompatibility with the 6.5-284 Winchester, which is a wildcat. If you were building a gun off of a Mauser I’d go the 6.5-284 Norma. If buying off the shelf, I’d do the PRC. If building from anything else, I’d say it’s pretty much a matter of your personal taste.

 

[Addicting]

I am leaning towards building a stainless Rem 700 SA in the PRC. That way when I get bored with it I can resell it easier. Wyatt’s has a good video on making it all work.

 

[antelopedundee]

Ballistically there isnt enough difference to matter. The PRC will fit in a short action better, particularly with long bullets. Short actions with magnum bolt faces aren’t exactly all over the place. Of course if you’re buying a gun off the shelf, then PRC is going to be a lot easier to find. Also, if you’re not going to reload, ammo for the 6.5-284 Norma isn’t abundant in large part due to its similarity, but incompatibility with the 6.5-284 Winchester, which is a wildcat. If you were building a gun off of a Mauser I’d go the 6.5-284 Norma. If buying off the shelf, I’d do the PRC. If building from anything else, I’d say it’s pretty much a matter of your personal taste.

How much difference is there between the 6.5-.284 wildcat and the Norma version?

 

[ImBillT]

How much difference is there between the 6.5-.284 wildcat and the Norma version?

In performance none. From a safety standpoint it depends on where they placed the shoulder. Before it was standardized the most common way would be to leave the shoulder body junction right where it was on the .284Win which gives you a shorter neck, and an easy neck down. This is how Norma did it. Depending on the thinking of the wildcatter however, one could just as easily decide to leave the neck shoulder junction in the same place as the .284Win maintaining neck length. This means the shoulder would have to be pushed back when sizing down the neck. For the 284Win case with its 35deg shoulder, it’s unlikely than anyone did this. If you encounter a 6.5-284Win you should have the headspace checked out at the very least. A chamber cast or a fired case would ease the mind a little further. There is also the issue of throat length and lead angle. The 6.5-284 Norma would be set up properly for a 130-140gr VLDs. A 6.5-284Win could have just about any throat length and lead angle.

 

[Don Fischer]

A) not everyone hunts with a rangefinder.

B) Rangefinders are not perfect and neither is a persons use of a rangefinder.

C) a wind call under hunting conditions is A LOT different than at a range with wind flags set at specific locations and sighting shots allowed. The best wind callers in the world make one or two 2mph mistakes throughout the course of a match, and they have a lot more to go on than a hunter in the field.

D) a 6.5x55 is incredibly close to a 6.5-06. It’s got 10-11% less powder capacity, but because it’s nearing the limits of a 6.5mm bore the difference in muzzle velocity, particularly with normal hunting barrel lengths, is minimal at best. Compared to a 6.5CM on the other hand a 6.5-06 is usually capable of about 400fps more, and that is quite significant.

E) just staying supersonic is not enough for all bullets. A lot of the tougher bullets used on big game do best above 2400fps.

I’d have to reference my dope chart and can’t at the moment, but my current 6.5 is roughly 2” high at its peak(somewhere around 170yds) and 19” low at 400yds. That takes out an awful lot need to have things perfect in the field. You can come fairly close to that with a 6.5x55, but not with a 6.5CM. The last four MD I shot were at roughly 175, 380, 300, and 300. I aimed roughly 10” over on the 380. I killed my first elk under some less than ideal circumstances and took a shot I probably should not have taken. After doing some math, I’m fairly confident that I would not have been able to hit the animal with the 30-06 I’d planned to use. I had switched to the 6.5 due to inclement weather as my 30-06 is in a wood stock.

I’m not saying that a 6.5CM won’t kill and kill well. I’m saying that to think that a 6.5-06 over no advantages is incorrect.

I’m not an expert long range shooter. I grew up shooting a benchrest club, won some hunter class benchrest matches, and dabbled in F-Class. I had a few shoots with very acceptable results, but never won a match. There were times my equipment disadvantages were likely responsible for the difference between 1st or 2nd place and 6th or 7th, and there were times when my skill and experience was wholly to blame. Hunting and competitive shooting are very different, and due the unavoidable imperfections of range finding, angle calculation, and wind estimation, decreased drop and drift do have value to a hunter even in the 300-500yd range.

#A your right.

#B So your gonna over come that with a cartridge that is gonna drop enough at long range you don't have to worry about it? This should be good!

#C I don't even attempt to judge wind speed. The wind blows to hard, I go home.

#D A 6.5x06 usually has a 400 fps advantage over a 6.5x55? Well I got both and that's not even close to true. I measure velocity With a Pact chronograph. Your guess is way off base!

#E I have read from real long range shooter's that what's required to keep a bullet stable at long range is that the bullet stay super sonic. Now I wouldn't know about that, farthest I've ever shot is 500 yds. But I suspect being super sonic will make a difference in how the bullet perform on game also as it's a speed but if the bullet falls below, it'll probably still kill but will lose accuracy. I'm pretty sure that a lot of bullet's do do better at 2400fps than under. Might be a good idea to confine your shooting at game animals to range's that whatever bullet your using won't fall below that velocity.

I think you might be right, doubt it but think so. You claim some advantage for the 6.5x06 at long range over the 6.5x55 but say it drop's 19" with the way you have it sighted in at 400 yds. So looking through your scope at 400 yds, how do you determine what 19" is, ah simply adjust the cross wire's, sure. So without your inaccurate range finder how do you determine the target is at 400 yds and not farther? If your 19" low at 400 yds, how low are you at 425 yds? Setting aside your inaccurate range finder, I presume you simply estimate the range with your practiced eye and determining the difference between 400 and 425 yds is an easy deal? You guy's that try to split hairs drive me nuts!

 

[Addicting]

Just wanted to throw this back out there as some folks are doing their best to derail and force this thread further into a rabbit hole.

The original discussion was between a 6.5 PRC and a 6.5-284.

#A your right.

#B So your gonna over come that with a cartridge that is gonna drop enough at long range you don't have to worry about it? This should be good!

#C I don't even attempt to judge wind speed. The wind blows to hard, I go home.

#D A 6.5x06 usually has a 400 fps advantage over a 6.5x55? Well I got both and that's not even close to true. I measure velocity With a Pact chronograph. Your guess is way off base!

#E I have read from real long range shooter's that what's required to keep a bullet stable at long range is that the bullet stay super sonic. Now I wouldn't know about that, farthest I've ever shot is 500 yds. But I suspect being super sonic will make a difference in how the bullet perform on game also as it's a speed but if the bullet falls below, it'll probably still kill but will lose accuracy. I'm pretty sure that a lot of bullet's do do better at 2400fps than under. Might be a good idea to confine your shooting at game animals to range's that whatever bullet your using won't fall below that velocity.

I think you might be right, doubt it but think so. You claim some advantage for the 6.5x06 at long range over the 6.5x55 but say it drop's 19" with the way you have it sighted in at 400 yds. So looking through your scope at 400 yds, how do you determine what 19" is, ah simply adjust the cross wire's, sure. So without your inaccurate range finder how do you determine the target is at 400 yds and not farther? If your 19" low at 400 yds, how low are you at 425 yds? Setting aside your inaccurate range finder, I presume you simply estimate the range with your practiced eye and determining the difference between 400 and 425 yds is an easy deal? You guy's that try to split hairs drive me nuts!

Don, I deicided I want going to call you put by name, But Jeez man, give it a rest. Go start you own thread if you can’t give up posing this crap. It has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

#A your right.

#B So your gonna over come that with a cartridge that is gonna drop enough at long range you don't have to worry about it? This should be good!

#C I don't even attempt to judge wind speed. The wind blows to hard, I go home.

#D A 6.5x06 usually has a 400 fps advantage over a 6.5x55? Well I got both and that's not even close to true. I measure velocity With a Pact chronograph. Your guess is way off base!

#E I have read from real long range shooter's that what's required to keep a bullet stable at long range is that the bullet stay super sonic. Now I wouldn't know about that, farthest I've ever shot is 500 yds. But I suspect being super sonic will make a difference in how the bullet perform on game also as it's a speed but if the bullet falls below, it'll probably still kill but will lose accuracy. I'm pretty sure that a lot of bullet's do do better at 2400fps than under. Might be a good idea to confine your shooting at game animals to range's that whatever bullet your using won't fall below that velocity.

I think you might be right, doubt it but think so. You claim some advantage for the 6.5x06 at long range over the 6.5x55 but say it drop's 19" with the way you have it sighted in at 400 yds. So looking through your scope at 400 yds, how do you determine what 19" is, ah simply adjust the cross wire's, sure. So without your inaccurate range finder how do you determine the target is at 400 yds and not farther? If your 19" low at 400 yds, how low are you at 425 yds? Setting aside your inaccurate range finder, I presume you simply estimate the range with your practiced eye and determining the difference between 400 and 425 yds is an easy deal? You guy's that try to split hairs drive me nuts!

Good God man, agree to disagree. You have to see that they are using science and facts of a perfect world. You are using common sense of a perfect world. At times there is overlap that just works. Sometimes it's just good to agree to disagree... IMO

Both will kill just as dead, but with significantly different factors and it really don't matter how dead, dead is.

 

[El Jason]

The wind blows to hard, I go home.

You wouldn't get much hunting done in north central MT. Wind blows hard, I hunt closer.

To the OPs question. Get the one you can find brass and/or ammo for.

 

[Don Fischer]

You wouldn't get much hunting done in north central MT. Wind blows hard, I hunt closer.

To the OPs question. Get the one you can find brass and/or ammo for.

yea it does. Lived near Lakeside for three years and didn't have to mess with it. made a trip to Haver one time and couldn't believe the wind!

 

[ImBillT]

#A your right.

#B So your gonna over come that with a cartridge that is gonna drop enough at long range you don't have to worry about it? This should be good!

#C I don't even attempt to judge wind speed. The wind blows to hard, I go home.

#D A 6.5x06 usually has a 400 fps advantage over a 6.5x55? Well I got both and that's not even close to true. I measure velocity With a Pact chronograph. Your guess is way off base!

#E I have read from real long range shooter's that what's required to keep a bullet stable at long range is that the bullet stay super sonic. Now I wouldn't know about that, farthest I've ever shot is 500 yds. But I suspect being super sonic will make a difference in how the bullet perform on game also as it's a speed but if the bullet falls below, it'll probably still kill but will lose accuracy. I'm pretty sure that a lot of bullet's do do better at 2400fps than under. Might be a good idea to confine your shooting at game animals to range's that whatever bullet your using won't fall below that velocity.

I think you might be right, doubt it but think so. You claim some advantage for the 6.5x06 at long range over the 6.5x55 but say it drop's 19" with the way you have it sighted in at 400 yds. So looking through your scope at 400 yds, how do you determine what 19" is, ah simply adjust the cross wire's, sure. So without your inaccurate range finder how do you determine the target is at 400 yds and not farther? If your 19" low at 400 yds, how low are you at 425 yds? Setting aside your inaccurate range finder, I presume you simply estimate the range with your practiced eye and determining the difference between 400 and 425 yds is an easy deal? You guy's that try to split hairs drive me nuts!

C) Too hard is highly subjective. 10mph doesn’t feel like a lot, but it will move a bullet a fair bit. A wind drift advantage is a real advantage.

D) You need to read a little more carefully. I said a 6.5x55 is close enough to a 6.5-06 that the difference doesn’t matter. At no point did I say there was a 400fps difference between them. I said there was about a 400fps difference between a 6.5CM and a 6.5-06. That will vary from gun to gun. The 6.5-06 will beat the 6.5CM by a wider margin(closer to the full 400fps) with longer barrels.

E) Being stable has nothing to do with proper expansion on a game animal. As far as long range stability, some bullets travel through the transonic velocity range without problems, and other suffer a number ills when doing so. In F-TR there was a saying “Friends don’t let friends shoot 168’s at 1000” because the 168gr MK would shoot great groups at 900yds and then be a total mess at 1000yds. Now days there are good enough bullets to stay above transonic at 1000yds even with the lowly .308Win, so you don’t have to find a bullet that travels through the transonic velocity zone well, you just stay above it. But back to game animals, the issue has nothing to do with stability. Most game bullets are designed with a certain impact velocity in mind. Some are too fragile for high velocity impacts, and some are too tough for low velocity impacts. Take a look at some pictures of e-tips and Accubonds at various velocities. Some bullets tend to do better over a wider velocity band than others.

How do I determine hold? A big mule deer is 20”-24” from back to brisket, and a big bulk elk is something in the neighborhood of 26”-30”. I also have the distance from the center of the crosshairs to the thick part of the duplex at various different powers written on my dope chart.

Lastly, I’m not shooting a 6.5x55 or 6.5-06. I’m shooting a wildcat with a 30” barrel running very high pressure and coating bullets with WS2. I’ve run 140’s anywhere from 3175-3300fps, and 130’s at 3400fps. I had a dope chart to 500yds. The idea is to get as close as I can, but I do a big part of my hunting on wheat fields and cotton fields where there isn’t much cover except on the edge, so in the case that I can’t get as close I’d like, I hold where I want to hit out to 275-300yds(about 8” low at 300yds) hold top of the back from 275-300yds out to about 350ish, 5”-6” over the top of the back from 350”ish till I’m thinking that’s definitely approaching 400yds, at which point I hold about a foot over the back. With 19” drop at 400yds and 30” at 500yds one foot over the back is somewhere from high in the lungs to a low heart shot on a mature mule deer. Due to the flat trajectory there is some room for error out to 400yds even if I’m off a fair bit, and it’s still not terribly critical out to 500yds. There was a time at which I was a lot better at range estimation, but that is a skill that goes away without practice. I’m still good enough that it’s not a serious problem out to 400yds with a flat shooting cartridge. A cartridge that shoots flatter is more forgiving of ranging errors whether those were made by the range finder, or by the shooter. Those drops may not be my exact trajectory, but they’re in the ball park. I’d have to reference my chart and of course it would depend upon which load I was shooting. Whatever the case, you cannot do that with a slow cartridge or low BC bullets. Running 3300fps offers an advantage over running 2700fps. There’s no reason that a 6.5x55 shouldn’t be able to be loaded up to 2900-3000fps(although that’s definitely the high side)with a 140, and a 6.5-06 under normal conditions shouldn’t be able to beat that by more 100fps at most. I’d assume that in most cases they’re actually almost identical.

Edit: Checked my dope
140gr Elite
150yds +2.0”
400yds. -13.0”
450yds. -19.5”
500yds. -27.5”

130VLD-H
150yds. +2.0”
400yds. -10.25”
450yds. -15.75”
500yds. -22.5”

Can’t touch that with a CM. You can get on the ball park with a 6.5 PRC, 6.5-06, or 6.5-284, especially if you’ll accept a peak slightly higher than 2”. That’ll almost do a mature mule deer with a top of the back hold from 175yds to 500yds. Even a poor range estimator can guess a little closer than that. It’s very forgiving. Flatter trajectories always are.