6.5?

Don Fischer

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Don, quite simply that is a dumb post. If you don’t know the ballistic differences between a 6.5-06 and a Creedmoor you have ZERO right to call some one out on shot placement. That kind of comment has no place in a thread discussing two different actions and cartridges. even with those old rifles it seem's the cartridge has quite a reputation
Are you suggesting that the same bullet from the Creedmoor and 6.5x06 placed exactly the same will give different results? Take a high percentage shot with either with the same bullet and the results will be the same. In fact I have an idea if you take the same shot with the same bullet in a 6.5x52 the end result will be the same! Maybe you could explain the ballistic advantage to me and it's importance?
 

antelopedundee

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Are you suggesting that the same bullet from the Creedmoor and 6.5x06 placed exactly the same will give different results? Take a high percentage shot with either with the same bullet and the results will be the same. In fact I have an idea if you take the same shot with the same bullet in a 6.5x52 the end result will be the same! Maybe you could explain the ballistic advantage to me and it's importance?
Twist rate of the barrels and muzzle velocities would need to be the same too.
 

Addicting

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Twist rate of the barrels and muzzle velocities would need to be the same too.
Bingo, @Don Fischer the muzzle velocity has to be the same. Don, none of your examples shoot the same velocity range. Each has its own specific. The two your comparing have a 3-400 FPS difference. That is a huge difference in energy your transferring to the animal.

So yes a bullet placed in the same spot on a animal will have drastically different results from a Creedmoor to a 6.5-06.

Both my still end up dead but one will die significantly faster than the other.

So instead of walking up on a cow elk and finding it still alive, it would probably be DRT with that extra 600 FT Lbs of energy.
 

Don Fischer

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Because they affect performance. The faster bullet will more likely kill quicker. A 130 grain 6.5mm bullet going 2950 fps doesn't care which rifle/cartridge got it there.
My understanding for a whole lot of years is that twist stabilize's bullet's! I have heard the argument for RPM's many many years ago, didn't buy it then and don't buy it now. Given the same well placed shot's either bullet will kill fast enough. What the faster bullet will do is break up the bullet fasted, shed velocity and make more destruction. If the bullet is light for caliber it is also possible that the fast light bullet will not penetrate enough to make a good kill. Your not gonna sell me on the idea that twist adds to killing power! Twist stabilizes bullet's, nothing more. I can hear it now, oh yes, RPM's kill!
 

antelopedundee

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My understanding for a whole lot of years is that twist stabilize's bullet's! I have heard the argument for RPM's many many years ago, didn't buy it then and don't buy it now. Given the same well placed shot's either bullet will kill fast enough. What the faster bullet will do is break up the bullet fasted, shed velocity and make more destruction. If the bullet is light for caliber it is also possible that the fast light bullet will not penetrate enough to make a good kill. Your not gonna sell me on the idea that twist adds to killing power! Twist stabilizes bullet's, nothing more. I can hear it now, oh yes, RPM's kill!
I think it has an effect, but how large is anyone's guess. A hi speed drill bores a hole faster than a low speed drill so I think that bullets from a fast twist [say 1-8] barrel will be more destructive than bullets from a 1-80 twist barrel. Most 6.5s are either going to be 8 or 9 twist so sort of a moot point.

As far as same results if your result is just being dead then both examples will have a similar result. Most of my 6.5-06 kills on antelope were so fast that they were on the ground before I recovered from the recoil. Will a .264 pipsqueak do that time after time?
 

Don Fischer

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I would agree velocity help's kill fast. 100gr Hornady Spire point bullet's from my 25-06 killed deer like a lighting bolt. But there was also a huge amount of internal damage. That bullet was going a bit over 3300FPS, haven't shot it in a lot of years. Moved up to the 117gr Hornady and the instant kill went way for the most part. What would happen is the deer would be hit, walk off maybe 20' and lay down dead. Used that bullet and load for a long time. Chronographed it at 3079FPS. Internal damage was greatly reduced with the 117gr bullet. Of course central nervous system hit's gave the same results with either bullet. I've never shot an animal through any bone's to speak of, heavy bones that is and I suspect the 100gr bullet would have a tuff time due to a light bullet and high velocity.

Seem's I read where the old 6.5x55 had a 7.5" twist in it. Needed it as it was used with heavier bullet's than we generally use today, 150+ gr. My 6.5x06 is a 1-9". Hornady told me the 1-9 wouldn't stabilize their 140gr bullet, did very well in my rifle. They alo told me it wouldn't stabilize their 123gr match bullet, I'll never know. Come's to match bullet's, I love Sierra Match King's. Probably other match bullet's may well be as good but I have always had great result's with MK's. Now Sierra told me my 1-9 would stablize their 140gr MK but wouldn't their 142gr MK. Don't understand that at all!

Had a 6.5x55 put together for the ex years ago on a Parker Hale 1200. Shooting across a chronograph it just did not lag far behind the 6.5x06. I've never seen or shot the 260 Rem or the 6.5 Creedmoor but I suspect neither of them would be all that far behind either but I doubt as close as the 6.5x55. Case is simply bigger though not quite as big as the 30-06 case. I have tried the 129gr Hornady spire point and 140gr spire point's in my 6.5x55 and can't decide which I like best. A flaw for me with velocity is if a bullet is not well enough constructed, to much can tear up the bullet. Got to a heavier bullet and depending on the bullet, you could well need a faster twist to stabilize the bullet. As for RPM's, I haven't got a clue what that might be in any bullet or cartridge and I would not rely on it to do much. I think it's simply a side product of velocity and twist. As for a high speed drill, I suspect the secret to that is a drill bit that can with stand the heat high speed will give it. The faster drill will develop higher heat and it can withstand that heat I'd think. Something about velocity. I used to use a lot of the old Hornady 50gr SX bullet's in a 222 Rem. Hornady cautioned that at 3500fps the bullet's would come apart in the air. We tried that with a buddy's 22-250, they did come apart right at 3500FPS. I suspect with them the problem was the velocity was getting the bullet to hot and the jacket wasn't thick enough to hold it together.

Two thing's I think are clear about bullet's, if not heavy enough, velocity can tear them up, usually impacting if velocity is to high. And I think a proper bullet for cartridge can withstand more than we think. We keep thinking we need thing's like partitions, bonded core and monolithic bullet's. They seem to serve only one purpose to me, they allow you to used lighter bullet's at higher velocity's without poor bullet performance, they hold together! Years ago I shot some difference bullet's into bundled newspaper at 100yds to see what the bullet's would do. Two really stood out, 154rg Hornady and 180ge Speer hot core from a 7mm mag. Both bullet's retained 85% of their weight, cup and core bullet's. The core of the Hornady was loose inside the jacket, could twist it around with my finger's. The Speer Hot Core stayed tight in the jacket. Now that 85%, compare that to what Nsler partition and interbond are designed to do. By design they maintain 70% of their weight. That's what Nosler told me. Weather it's good or bad, I'm not sure. I think it's a fact that those Nosler bullet's do very well. In the end though for a bullet to do it's job, it must maintain enough weight to penetrate to the vitals and a bit more to destroy then and it must be placed to make use of the way the bullet is made. I can guarantee you that a 22 LR can kill a deer every bit as fast as a 270 Win. But you have to use it within it's limits and anything less and it wounds, nothing more. Used withing it's limits, velocity has little to do with it, you get close nd you place the bullet very precisely! I read an article some time back about the world record Grizzly bear, it's number two today. It was killed by a woman coming in off a trap line with, get this, a 22 long RF in a single shot rifle! Velocity had to play a role but bullet placement played a much bigger role and her understanding of how to use what she had.
 

std7mag

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Wait....
Now i'm confused...
100gr from your 25-06 was DRT, so you switched so the animal could have a chance to walk off to die???

I'll take the bullet that does massive internal damage any day over that!
 

antelopedundee

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I would agree velocity help's kill fast. 100gr Hornady Spire point bullet's from my 25-06 killed deer like a lighting bolt. But there was also a huge amount of internal damage. That bullet was going a bit over 3300FPS, haven't shot it in a lot of years. Moved up to the 117gr Hornady and the instant kill went way for the most part. What would happen is the deer would be hit, walk off maybe 20' and lay down dead. Used that bullet and load for a long time. Chronographed it at 3079FPS. Internal damage was greatly reduced with the 117gr bullet. Of course central nervous system hit's gave the same results with either bullet. I've never shot an animal through any bone's to speak of, heavy bones that is and I suspect the 100gr bullet would have a tuff time due to a light bullet and high velocity.

Seem's I read where the old 6.5x55 had a 7.5" twist in it. Needed it as it was used with heavier bullet's than we generally use today, 150+ gr. My 6.5x06 is a 1-9". Hornady told me the 1-9 wouldn't stabilize their 140gr bullet, did very well in my rifle. They alo told me it wouldn't stabilize their 123gr match bullet, I'll never know. Come's to match bullet's, I love Sierra Match King's. Probably other match bullet's may well be as good but I have always had great result's with MK's. Now Sierra told me my 1-9 would stablize their 140gr MK but wouldn't their 142gr MK. Don't understand that at all!

Had a 6.5x55 put together for the ex years ago on a Parker Hale 1200. Shooting across a chronograph it just did not lag far behind the 6.5x06. I've never seen or shot the 260 Rem or the 6.5 Creedmoor but I suspect neither of them would be all that far behind either but I doubt as close as the 6.5x55. Case is simply bigger though not quite as big as the 30-06 case. I have tried the 129gr Hornady spire point and 140gr spire point's in my 6.5x55 and can't decide which I like best. A flaw for me with velocity is if a bullet is not well enough constructed, to much can tear up the bullet. Got to a heavier bullet and depending on the bullet, you could well need a faster twist to stabilize the bullet. As for RPM's, I haven't got a clue what that might be in any bullet or cartridge and I would not rely on it to do much. I think it's simply a side product of velocity and twist. As for a high speed drill, I suspect the secret to that is a drill bit that can with stand the heat high speed will give it. The faster drill will develop higher heat and it can withstand that heat I'd think. Something about velocity. I used to use a lot of the old Hornady 50gr SX bullet's in a 222 Rem. Hornady cautioned that at 3500fps the bullet's would come apart in the air. We tried that with a buddy's 22-250, they did come apart right at 3500FPS. I suspect with them the problem was the velocity was getting the bullet to hot and the jacket wasn't thick enough to hold it together.

Two thing's I think are clear about bullet's, if not heavy enough, velocity can tear them up, usually impacting if velocity is to high. And I think a proper bullet for cartridge can withstand more than we think. We keep thinking we need thing's like partitions, bonded core and monolithic bullet's. They seem to serve only one purpose to me, they allow you to used lighter bullet's at higher velocity's without poor bullet performance, they hold together! Years ago I shot some difference bullet's into bundled newspaper at 100yds to see what the bullet's would do. Two really stood out, 154rg Hornady and 180ge Speer hot core from a 7mm mag. Both bullet's retained 85% of their weight, cup and core bullet's. The core of the Hornady was loose inside the jacket, could twist it around with my finger's. The Speer Hot Core stayed tight in the jacket. Now that 85%, compare that to what Nsler partition and interbond are designed to do. By design they maintain 70% of their weight. That's what Nosler told me. Weather it's good or bad, I'm not sure. I think it's a fact that those Nosler bullet's do very well. In the end though for a bullet to do it's job, it must maintain enough weight to penetrate to the vitals and a bit more to destroy then and it must be placed to make use of the way the bullet is made. I can guarantee you that a 22 LR can kill a deer every bit as fast as a 270 Win. But you have to use it within it's limits and anything less and it wounds, nothing more. Used withing it's limits, velocity has little to do with it, you get close nd you place the bullet very precisely! I read an article some time back about the world record Grizzly bear, it's number two today. It was killed by a woman coming in off a trap line with, get this, a 22 long RF in a single shot rifle! Velocity had to play a role but bullet placement played a much bigger role and her understanding of how to use what she had.
The Hornady 129 grain interlocks have always worked well for me. Bout the same as the Sierra 130 grain TGKs. The 160 grain "pencil" bullets [as a friend used to call them] were known to kill elephants pretty easily. Maybe the 7.5 twist had something to do with it.
 

Don Fischer

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Wait....
Now i'm confused...
100gr from your 25-06 was DRT, so you switched so the animal could have a chance to walk off to die???

I'll take the bullet that does massive internal damage any day over that!
No. I switched so I wasn't tearing up the inside so badly. Just wanted clean kills, not messy kills!
 

Don Fischer

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The Hornady 129 grain interlocks have always worked well for me. Bout the same as the Sierra 130 grain TGKs. The 160 grain "pencil" bullets [as a friend used to call them] were known to kill elephants pretty easily. Maybe the 7.5 twist had something to do with it.
I'd read about Bell and the long 160gr bullet's on elephant. Seem's he quit using them because they had a tendicity to bend. Then that's a lot of penetrating to do in some tuff animal.
 

ImBillT

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Are you suggesting that the same bullet from the Creedmoor and 6.5x06 placed exactly the same will give different results? Take a high percentage shot with either with the same bullet and the results will be the same. In fact I have an idea if you take the same shot with the same bullet in a 6.5x52 the end result will be the same! Maybe you could explain the ballistic advantage to me and it's importance?
The flatter trajectory and decreased wind drift from the extra 400fps will make it easier to put the bullet in the right place. Also, there’s a point at which impact velocity is going to make a significant difference. If you set a threshold for minimum impact velocity, then the 6.5-06 will have a longer effective range. Of course, when using the term effective range, drop and drift are usually included, and again, the 6.5-06 would have a significant advantage over the 6.5 CM.
 

JohnCushman

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Bingo, @Don Fischer the muzzle velocity has to be the same. Don, none of your examples shoot the same velocity range. Each has its own specific. The two your comparing have a 3-400 FPS difference. That is a huge difference in energy your transferring to the animal.

So yes a bullet placed in the same spot on a animal will have drastically different results from a Creedmoor to a 6.5-06.

Both my still end up dead but one will die significantly faster than the other.

So instead of walking up on a cow elk and finding it still alive, it would probably be DRT with that extra 600 FT Lbs of energy.
DUDE!!!! Quit making sense!!! :p
 

Don Fischer

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Not sure I understand this. You mean the slower one won't kill the animal, I guess the bullet bounce's off? Or do you mean the faster one will kill it deader? I thought the idea was to kill the animal cleanly, not deader!
 

antelopedundee

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Not sure I understand this. You mean the slower one won't kill the animal, I guess the bullet bounce's off? Or do you mean the faster one will kill it deader? I thought the idea was to kill the animal cleanly, not deader!
The faster bullet will likely kill it the same dead a hair faster and maybe with more drama. Dead is dead, but the route to deadness isn't exactly the same for each bullet. Similar, but not exactly the same. Watch a few hunting shows on the Outdoor or Sportsman's channels and you'll soon see more than a few hits that don't result in a DRT or dead before they hit the ground..
 
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