Wyoming Corner Crossing Defense Fund

[antlerradar]

Deep red? Nah, don’t try picking the fight with local working landowners. My suggestion is a nonresident landowner that outfits their property. Maybe somewhere in the Crazies?

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Crazies are pinned. No way you would want to do this if you don't have video of you stepping over the pin.

 

[DFS]

If MTFWP has a strong feeling about corner crossing changes in season structure and management would go a long way to stop it. I have never really cared to but I’m thinking about how I can shoot the last accessible deer or elk so maybe I should consider it.

 

[antlerradar]

The "remains unlawful" is an interesting comment from Deputy Director Temple. A case with similar facts to the Wyoming case has not been tried in Montana, to my knowledge. And I know of no cases that were tried in Federal Court. Yeah, there is always the chance that a case might get decided differently in a 9th Circuit Court (Montana) than it did in a 10th Circuit (Wyoming), but attorneys tell me there is not any distinction in Montana law that really changes the findings the judge ruled in Wyoming.

I've hired two Montana law firms to consult with me on the issue and both say it has not been a settled part of Montana law. Maybe FWP has access to some cases that support their statement. Maybe FWP will follow up with citation of the cases that give them confidence in making their statement. Some cases were tried in Montana and the defendant found guilty in a criminal case when they crossed "near corners" using a "close enough" approach, but I'm not aware of a case such as the exhaustive effort the Missouri hunters exercised in the Wyoming case where it was found to be "unlawful."

I am meeting with the attorneys again to record another podcast next week. I've asked them to look again to see if there are any Montana cases that support what FWP is stating. Maybe such exists and the law firms I've hired haven't found it.

When I took ag law at MSU we studied a case where a person was shooting across private. Person was convicted for trespassing because of violating air space. I can not remember the details as that was 30 years ago.

 

[JM77]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Crazies are pinned. No way you would want to do this if you don't have video of you stepping over the pin.

So you are saying in Montana you are not presumed innocent, you have to prove it?

 

[kwyeewyk]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Crazies are pinned. No way you would want to do this if you don't have video of you stepping over the pin.

Call me crazy but I see a day where corner crossing will be legal as long as your intent is to cross to public land in a good faith effort; there are so many corners that aren't marked and even marked corners can be extremely difficult to find, but any reasonable judge would see that as long as your intent is to cross to public and you use a reasonable mapping app and make a best effort to minimize crossing of private property and don't damage private property in the process it's a benign act not worthy of prosecution. Not quite there yet but I think one day we will be.

 

[USMC123456789]

An attorney with a youtube channel goes over the ruling, it's a good video.

 

[marksjeep]

Waypoint 6 trespass dropped.

https://wyofile.com/ranch-owner-in-corner-crossing-case-drops-waypoint-6-trespass-claim/

 

[antlerradar]

So you are saying in Montana you are not presumed innocent, you have to prove it?

No, I am saying that if you are going to be a test case, you will want all your ducks in a row like the four in WY.

 

[antlerradar]

Call me crazy but I see a day where corner crossing will be legal as long as your intent is to cross to public land in a good faith effort; there are so many corners that aren't marked and even marked corners can be extremely difficult to find, but any reasonable judge would see that as long as your intent is to cross to public and you use a reasonable mapping app and make a best effort to minimize crossing of private property and don't damage private property in the process it's a benign act not worthy of prosecution. Not quite there yet but I think one day we will be.

You could be right, but this is the moving the goal posts thing that many landowners fear.

 

[Rhcuam]

I have a hard time believing that there’s going to be a county attorney in Montana that wants to get embarrassed like the county attorney in Wyoming case.

 

[antlerradar]

So you are saying in Montana you are not presumed innocent, you have to prove it?

With out a pin, with the accuracy of even the best GPS there is a good chance that the landowner could prove with high probability and beyond a reasonable doubt that the hunter stepped on his property. With out a pin the WY case may have gone differently.

 

[Rhcuam]

With out a pin, with the accuracy of even the best GPS there is a good chance that the landowner could prove with high probability and beyond a reasonable doubt that the hunter stepped on his property. With out a pin the WY case may have gone differently.

How would they prove it if he doesn’t even know where the corner is?

 

[300stw]

When I took ag law at MSU we studied a case where a person was shooting across private. Person was convicted for trespassing because of violating air space. I can not remember the details as that was 30 years ago.

how about the state governments start charging taxes on the airspace that all of us landowners "own", hell of a bunch of money for the state tax dept to get there hands on,,,

 

[Nameless Range]

I'm not a lawyer, and often find the law to be weird. But I could totally percieve "trespass" where, as antlerradar mentions, someone shoots over your property. Or say, someone builds something that hangs over your property in an intrusive way.

As the FWP position paper and others have mentioned, it really is the de minimis aspect to this that I think is an important attribute of corner crossing. When the pin is known, stepping from one chunk of public land to another, results in a "trespassing" far too trivial to merit consideration by the courts - and more broadly, society. I don't see that conclusion being unsound or invalid, or even incompatible with sacrosanct property rights.

We all know damn well it ain't the actual "trespass" over their corners of earth, that these landowners are concerned about. It's the resulting loss of exclusive access to public lands adjacent to their parcels.

 

[dranrab]

It seems pretty clear Montana wardens have been instructed not to cite trespass to hunt for corner crossing, I'm guessing? What law would they cite for?

45-6-203. Criminal trespass to property, MCA

leg.mt.gov

(b)

 

[seeth07]

With out a pin, with the accuracy of even the best GPS there is a good chance that the landowner could prove with high probability and beyond a reasonable doubt that the hunter stepped on his property. With out a pin the WY case may have gone differently.

Maybe I am wrong but I thought in the Wyoming case not every corner they crossed was marked with an actual survey marker. Am I mistaken?

 

[BuzzH]

Maybe I am wrong but I thought in the Wyoming case not every corner they crossed was marked with an actual survey marker. Am I mistaken?

They were all marked a vast majority are.

 

[Addicting]

They were all marked a vast majority are.

Were

 

[seeth07]

They were all marked a vast majority are.

is it normal that a vast majority are or only at section corners?

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Crazies are pinned. No way you would want to do this if you don't have video of you stepping over the pin.

Why would the crazies not have pins? Seems like with all the checkerboard that is 100% a place that should be pinned. If that is true there is probably some fences in there that are waaay off.