Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!

[shootbrownelk]

I think its a shame R license cost are a pittance. Both NR and R license costs need to at least double in the case of NR and quadruple in the case of R.

Resident tag prices aren't a pittance to me. Speak for yourself, how much are resident tags where you reside. I see you didn't include your home state in your info.

 

[shootbrownelk]

I haven’t been able to follow this as closely as I’d like so excuse my ignorance. Will deer/elk/pronghorn be changing soon as well?

Hopefully.

 

[brownbear932008]

Resident tag prices aren't a pittance to me. Speak for yourself, how much are resident tags where you reside. I see you didn't include your home state in your info.

I agree WY residents actually pay a fair price for tags compared to several other Western States.

 

[BuzzH]

I just have a hard time believing we're at a point where so many non-residents are going to abandon Wyoming that there's going to be an impact. I mean, there would literally have to be leftover NR big 5 tags that don't get purchased by the end of the season before there would arguably be an impact to the hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc. And I don't think there will ever be a day, regardless of price or number of licenses, where any big 5 NR license will ever go unpurchased.

Is Wyoming going to lose maybe a little revenue from some people no longer purchasing preference points for the big 5? Maybe (they'll offset it with fee increases, etc). But that assumes that the NRs buying the preference points are paying attention to changes like this (and I doubt many of them are) and will stop buying them because they see their odds dwindling.

So put me in the "skeptical" column that this 90/10 change is going to have any impact at all on the amount of NR money spent hunting the big 5 in Wyoming each year.

Maybe...but I doubt much.

Look at the point tables, lots of 1-5 point guys jumping in and out all the time buying points.

Also, NR elk applications were up 25% this year...and I bet a vast majority by elk points...that won't change even under 90-10.

With ever increasing numbers of hunters applying all over the West, there is essentially zero worry of revenue drying up.

 

[shootbrownelk]

There are no longer more antelope than people in Wyoming.

The antelope population is down about twenty percent from when that statement was true.

This fact is also more important than whether or not we get ten or twenty percent of those tags, for multiple reasons.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe non residents get close to 50% of the antelope tags right now, and have for years.

 

[RobertD]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe non residents get close to 50% of the antelope tags right now, and have for years.

Nope, you're right and I'm gonna make a quick edit.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

I just have a hard time believing we're at a point where so many non-residents are going to abandon Wyoming that there's going to be an impact. I mean, there would literally have to be leftover NR big 5 tags that don't get purchased by the end of the season before there would arguably be an impact to the hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc. And I don't think there will ever be a day, regardless of price or number of licenses, where any big 5 NR license will ever go unpurchased.

Is Wyoming going to lose maybe a little revenue from some people no longer purchasing preference points for the big 5? Maybe (they'll offset it with fee increases, etc). But that assumes that the NRs buying the preference points are paying attention to changes like this (and I doubt many of them are) and will stop buying them because they see their odds dwindling.

So put me in the "skeptical" column that this 90/10 change is going to have any impact at all on the amount of NR money spent hunting the big 5 in Wyoming each year.

I think I already said this on last month's thread, but....

I walked away from my wife's moose points a couple years ago when a commissioner said, "These people have lots of money; they'll pay whatever price we charge." I'm only one guy buying for a family of five, but that change was a loss of $600 of anticipated revenue per year ($150 moose point x wife and three kids).

Given limited resources, I look at the cost/value relationship for all the points I buy. Wyoming has always been high on that scale, but this change (especially talking about carrying over to deer/elk/antelope) certainly affects that. I know everyone thinks application numbers only go up, but they say that about the housing market, too.

If nothing else, this perhaps provides me with an exit strategy from Wyoming. Once I or my family draws something, it may be much easier to let that be the end of points for that species in Wyoming. I understand that Wyoming can do what Wyoming wants, but it doesn't seem like a good business model when customers are talking about a loss of value in the product.

QQ

 

[Outdoor Junkie]

I think I already said this on last month's thread, but....

I walked away from my wife's moose points a couple years ago when a commissioner said, "These people have lots of money; they'll pay whatever price we charge." I'm only one guy buying for a family of five, but that change was a loss of $600 of anticipated revenue per year ($150 moose point x wife and three kids).

Given limited resources, I look at the cost/value relationship for all the points I buy. Wyoming has always been high on that scale, but this change (especially talking about carrying over to deer/elk/antelope) certainly affects that. I know everyone thinks application numbers only go up, but they say that about the housing market, too.

If nothing else, this perhaps provides me with an exit strategy from Wyoming. Once I or my family draws something, it may be much easier to let that be the end of points for that species in Wyoming. I understand that Wyoming can do what Wyoming wants, but it doesn't seem like a good business model when customers are talking about a loss of value in the product.

QQ

I get why both sides feel the way they do. If I was a resident I’d be for it, but I’m not and I’m against it. With that said, I coordinate a lot of the planning for my group of 5-6 guys in our mid 40’s that get points every year out west in Wyoming and Colorado. I would say that we’ll probably watch to see how this affects preference points required to draw different tags next year. If it starts getting too stupid for basic hunts, then some or all of us will absolutely stop spending money on all the points each year once we burn our existing points. Will someone fill our void if the allocation is only 10%. Probably.
I do think that the biggest change will be generational. I could have never afforded the current license prices and preference points as a young guy starting out. It was tight early on, but I found a way. I think that the general move to decrease non resident tags will decrease the number of new non-resident hunters that will start hunting out west, but that will take a long time to see the effects of.

it’s going to be hard to convince young guys/ gals just entering the system to drop money for 8-10 years to draw a basic general elk or deer tag, which is not out of the picture given point creep and allocation decreases.

Will that matter long term? Probably not, but I can say that I try to educate my group when there is new legislation for public land transfer or sale, bills like LWCF, etc. so that they know the ramifications and have them contact their representatives in Congress. Do these efforts make a difference? I honestly don’t know. I actually have my doubts….

The one thing I am certain of is that there will be long term ramifications, but a lot of that is hard to quantify. I am also certain that anyone who says they know for certain the long term impact is either a Nobel laureate or is blowing smoke up your ass.

I will say that the people I know in Wyoming do infinitely more for habitat and game population improvement projects than I do and I don’t blame them for wanting a bigger slice of the pie, I just wish that was possible without my slice of the pie getting smaller, but that’s not how this works.

happy Friday!

 

[Lost Arra]

Good points above regarding young people entering the preference point scene.

Knowledgeable young hunters could be more discerning about preference points and their potential lack of value depending on where and when and what they want to hunt.

I steer new young hunters interested in elk to Colorado so they don't have to get tangled up in the draw processes until they see if they like elk hunting. It also keeps them out of my way in Wyoming. (No lectures please, I'm kidding....sort of)

 

[JDH]

I get why both sides feel the way they do. If I was a resident I’d be for it, but I’m not and I’m against it. With that said, I coordinate a lot of the planning for my group of 5-6 guys in our mid 40’s that get points every year out west in Wyoming and Colorado. I would say that we’ll probably watch to see how this affects preference points required to draw different tags next year. If it starts getting too stupid for basic hunts, then some or all of us will absolutely stop spending money on all the points each year once we burn our existing points. Will someone fill our void if the allocation is only 10%. Probably.
I do think that the biggest change will be generational. I could have never afforded the current license prices and preference points as a young guy starting out. It was tight early on, but I found a way. I think that the general move to decrease non resident tags will decrease the number of new non-resident hunters that will start hunting out west, but that will take a long time to see the effects of.

it’s going to be hard to convince young guys/ gals just entering the system to drop money for 8-10 years to draw a basic general elk or deer tag, which is not out of the picture given point creep and allocation decreases.

Will that matter long term? Probably not, but I can say that I try to educate my group when there is new legislation for public land transfer or sale, bills like LWCF, etc. so that they know the ramifications and have them contact their representatives in Congress. Do these efforts make a difference? I honestly don’t know. I actually have my doubts….

The one thing I am certain of is that there will be long term ramifications, but a lot of that is hard to quantify. I am also certain that anyone who says they know for certain the long term impact is either a Nobel laureate or is blowing smoke up your ass.

I will say that the people I know in Wyoming do infinitely more for habitat and game population improvement projects than I do and I don’t blame them for wanting a bigger slice of the pie, I just wish that was possible without my slice of the pie getting smaller, but that’s not how this works.

happy Friday!

Well said.

 

[Labman]

…he's hacked my GF account to find out where I apply for tags.

That sounds crazy. Who would need to go to those extremes when we can just look at the drawing odds information you provide and figure it out.

 

[BuzzH]

I get why both sides feel the way they do. If I was a resident I’d be for it, but I’m not and I’m against it. With that said, I coordinate a lot of the planning for my group of 5-6 guys in our mid 40’s that get points every year out west in Wyoming and Colorado. I would say that we’ll probably watch to see how this affects preference points required to draw different tags next year. If it starts getting too stupid for basic hunts, then some or all of us will absolutely stop spending money on all the points each year once we burn our existing points. Will someone fill our void if the allocation is only 10%. Probably.
I do think that the biggest change will be generational. I could have never afforded the current license prices and preference points as a young guy starting out. It was tight early on, but I found a way. I think that the general move to decrease non resident tags will decrease the number of new non-resident hunters that will start hunting out west, but that will take a long time to see the effects of.

it’s going to be hard to convince young guys/ gals just entering the system to drop money for 8-10 years to draw a basic general elk or deer tag, which is not out of the picture given point creep and allocation decreases.

Will that matter long term? Probably not, but I can say that I try to educate my group when there is new legislation for public land transfer or sale, bills like LWCF, etc. so that they know the ramifications and have them contact their representatives in Congress. Do these efforts make a difference? I honestly don’t know. I actually have my doubts….

The one thing I am certain of is that there will be long term ramifications, but a lot of that is hard to quantify. I am also certain that anyone who says they know for certain the long term impact is either a Nobel laureate or is blowing smoke up your ass.

I will say that the people I know in Wyoming do infinitely more for habitat and game population improvement projects than I do and I don’t blame them for wanting a bigger slice of the pie, I just wish that was possible without my slice of the pie getting smaller, but that’s not how this works.

happy Friday!

The good news for you, if you're applying for basic deer and elk tags, assuming general elk, type 6 cow tags, and region wide deer tags...none of those will be impacted by 90-10.

In fact, if you're hunting general elk, it may increase your odds.

Sebastian and a few others are painting this as all doom and gloom...its not, far from it.

Also going to work with the commission/department/landowners to come up with more license types and increasing quotas for region tags for deer. I had some good conversations with a couple folks from the legislature and department yesterday to work on this...

 

[cur dog]

"In contrast, nonres will drop out of the drawings like flies with 90/10. The revenue losses over 20 to 30 years is mind=boggling...especially when you keep in mind the loss of nonres that drop out of Wyo's draw system in that time."

I've been waiting for nr to drop out for the last 10 years.

I agree WY residents actually pay a fair price for tags compared to several other Western States.

The good news for you, if you're applying for basic deer and elk tags, assuming general elk, type 6 cow tags, and region wide deer tags...none of those will be impacted by 90-10.

In fact, if you're hunting general elk, it may increase your odds.

Sebastian and a few others are painting this as all doom and gloom...its not, far from it.

Also going to work with the commission/department/landowners to come up with more license types and increasing quotas for region tags for deer. I had some good conversations with a couple folks from the legislature and department yesterday to work on this...

So, the big question is this. What does WOGA get for backing 90/10 for the big 5.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Are they changing the NR elk and deer tag costs?

 

[jimss]

Buzz mentioned the good news above but the truth to the matter is that nonres that are flipping the bill paying for 77% of license and pref pt revenue are interested in high demand limited tags that they spend high $ on pref pt fees each year. Wyo res pay $0.00/year in pref pt fees each year for deer, elk, and antelope.

When you add up all the pref pt fees for sheep, moose, deer, elk, and antelope a nonres hunter could potentially pay $438/year for pref pt/application fees for these 5 species. If multiplied by 10 years that is $4,380 just to apply for pref pts!

Nonres have been paying pref pt for up to $25 years and Wyo res have paid $0.00 for pref pts for deer, elk, and antelope over this time!

The sad part about it is that 90/10 will strip nonres of 1/2 of the limited high demand tags and the draw odds for residents for the premium unit tags that they concerned about drawing won't hardly increase at all.

 

[icebreaker12]

Good grief. I really didn’t realize how entitled the NR were in Wyoming. Quit beating the dead horse. Anyone that doesn’t realize that NR make up the vast majority of license sale revenue in WY is living under a rock. As it pertains the the big 5, NR license sale revenue is a small fraction of of WGFD overall budget.

Hope they make the majority of the Big 5 OIL. And I hope they require all applicants to hold a small game license when applying similar to CO. That will more than make up for the lost revenue between the increased license sales and increased PR allocation.

 

[jimss]

So Icebreaker12, it looks like you live in PA. How's the mule deer, elk, and antelope hunting in your state and how often do you draw those tags? How many kids do you have and are you willing to fork out $438/year for each one of them just to apply each of them for sheep, moose, elk, deer, and antelope pref pts? Do you seriously want to pay for a small game license in addition to the $438 for pref pt fees? Wyo res pay $0.00 each year for deer, elk, and antelope.

We can beat the dead horse all day until you get it! Even though Wyo res want a bigger piece of the pie it takes a choke hold on Wyo res to increase tag prices and they haven't shown interest in doing this.

How many nonres just starting out applying are going to pick Wyo when it would take twice as long to draw the same tags after 90/10 and it costs $124/year just to apply for deer, elk, and antelope each year with horrible draw odds? They can come hunt Colo elk every year without paying for pref pt fees and receive up to 35% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags issued? Like I've been saying all along if 90/10 passes in Wyo it will likely happen in Colo. Then what options do PA hunters have to hunt mule deer, elk, and antelope on a regular basis? Are you going to fly or drive to Wyo to hunt doe antelope?

 

[madtom]

So Icebreaker12, it looks like you live in PA. How's the mule deer, elk, and antelope hunting in your state and how often do you draw those tags? How many kids do you have and are you willing to fork out $438/year for each one of them just to apply each of them for sheep, moose, elk, deer, and antelope pref pts? Do you seriously want to pay for a small game license in addition to the $438 for pref pt fees? Wyo res pay $0.00 each year for deer, elk, and antelope.

We can beat the dead horse all day until you get it! Even though Wyo res want a bigger piece of the pie it takes a choke hold on Wyo res to increase tag prices and they haven't shown interest in doing this.

How many nonres just starting out applying are going to pick Wyo when it would take twice as long to draw the same tags after 90/10 and it costs $124/year just to apply for deer, elk, and antelope each year with horrible draw odds? They can come hunt Colo elk every year without paying for pref pt fees and receive up to 35% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags issued? Like I've been saying all along if 90/10 passes in Wyo it will likely happen in Colo. Then what options do PA hunters have to hunt mule deer, elk, and antelope on a regular basis? Are you going to fly or drive to Wyo to hunt doe antelope?

Tell me what LQ mule deer tag you’re hunting “regularly” as a NR now, then tell me how regional NR general mule deer quotas will be affected by 90/10

 

[icebreaker12]

So Icebreaker12, it looks like you live in PA. How's the mule deer, elk, and antelope hunting in your state and how often do you draw those tags? How many kids do you have and are you willing to fork out $438/year for each one of them just to apply each of them for sheep, moose, elk, deer, and antelope pref pts? Do you seriously want to pay for a small game license in addition to the $438 for pref pt fees? Wyo res pay $0.00 each year for deer, elk, and antelope.

We can beat the dead horse all day until you get it! Even though Wyo res want a bigger piece of the pie it takes a choke hold on Wyo res to increase tag prices and they haven't shown interest in doing this.

How many nonres just starting out applying are going to pick Wyo when it would take twice as long to draw the same tags after 90/10 and it costs $124/year just to apply for deer, elk, and antelope each year with horrible draw odds? They can come hunt Colo elk every year without paying for pref pt fees and receive up to 35% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags issued? Like I've been saying all along if 90/10 passes in Wyo it will likely happen in Colo. Then what options do PA hunters have to hunt mule deer, elk, and antelope on a regular basis? Are you going to fly or drive to Wyo to hunt doe antelope?

Wait, so their legislature doesn’t want to increase fees for their constituents so they can get re-elected? But they are happy to increase fees for NR who don’t vote for them?

This is a shocking revelation.

FYI - I was in Wyoming last fall with two doe whitetail tags.

Also, CO is currently at like 65/35 and just had a bill die trying to limit them to 66/33. Take that fear mongering elsewhere.

 

[ccc23454]

Hope they make the majority of the Big 5 OIL.

Agreed OIL is fair option except for Bison. Bison needs to remain under current statue. Some bison hunters never even see a legal Bison if weather doesnt cooperate, state even send applicants a disclaimer about the likelyhood of this happening. Its not a hard to draw tag and i would be pissed if i had a OIL tag and hunted everyday and never even had a legal oppurtunity to harvest. Under current rules if you dont fill tag you can reapply if you fill your either tag on a bull your OIL and done forever. Well written statue that covers all basis for bison hunters while still providing management tool for herd.