Who And What Was George Custer?

[David58]

One has to realize that the Cheyenne and Sioux were foreign to that land just as were the US Cavalry. Ask the Crow, Pawnee, Arikara what they thought of the Cheyenne and Sioux who took pride in running them off of their land and killing them on sight. History is nuanced, and is not nearly so simple as a meme or a Hollywood flick.

One needs to see the battlefield to appreciate it. Imagine Reno's men retreating across the river and up that cut bank (and then later that night sneaking back down to get water). Imagine the terror in the camp, the population peppered with Cheyenne that survived Sand Creek and the Wabash. The steepness of the hills that the warriors sprinted up, still having the energy to fight well. The heat of that day, and the utter confusion everywhere, neither side having any order of battle that day. And the mourning among the people whose sons and fathers died that day, and the shock days later when the news reached Fort Lincoln.

Genocide is likely an appropriate term, both societies doing what they thought was right to thrive. Looking back it is easy to condemn it all (there is some behavior that was certainly damnable), but remember history then, and today, isn't necessarily black and white.

 

[rwc101]

I think the important caveat here is that there are people alive today that had there lives torn apart by this "forced assimilation".

Whole thing hits different when it's family members you know not long dead people in a book.

Right. "Assimilation" was separating children from their family and "re-educating" them to erase their ethnic and religious background to the greatest extent possible.

 

[rwc101]

One has to realize that the Cheyenne and Sioux were foreign to that land just as were the US Cavalry. Ask the Crow, Pawnee, Arikara what they thought of the Cheyenne and Sioux who took pride in running them off of their land and killing them on sight. History is nuanced, and is not nearly so simple as a meme or a Hollywood flick.

Agree with a lot of what you say. Also have to realize what pushed the Sioux and Cheyenne west. Colonialism and conflict.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Right. "Assimilation" was separating children from their family and "re-educating" them to erase their ethnic and religious background to the greatest extent possible.

The U.S. stole generations of Indigenous children to open the West - High Country News

Indian boarding schools held Native American youth hostage in exchange for land cessions.

www.hcn.org

Up until the early 90s in Colorado you were not allowed to see your adoption records. If you wanted information you had to speak with a state intermediary who would look at your file and they would decide what they felt like sharing.

So there were kids born as late as the 50s/60s taken from their native families and given to white families. Some even had their birth certificates changed to say "white". When these children became adults and went searching for answers they were barred from that information until 1978. After 78' in CO the protocol was just to tell the individual you were native via the intermediary. This however does not give you what you need for tribal affiliation. It was not until 96' that you could petition to see your adoption file which would give you the ability to figure out where you were from, and the documentation necessary to obtain tribal affiliation.

There are still people today fighting to reconnect with their families and being stymied by the system.

 

[shrapnel]

Right. "Assimilation" was separating children from their family and "re-educating" them to erase their ethnic and religious background to the greatest extent possible.

It is easy after all the mistakes have been made to sit and criticize those mistakes. Realistically you haven’t considered the times and lives of those involved to be so critical of what did happen.

Your plan could never have been presented because all your insight is after the action of all those involved that lived without that luxury.

 

[rwc101]

It is easy after all the mistakes have been made to sit and criticize those mistakes. Realistically you haven’t considered the times and lives of those involved to be so critical of what did happen.

Your plan could never have been presented because all your insight is after the action of all those involved that lived without that luxury.

Realistically, I have a degree in history. Rape and genocide are not mistakes. They are crimes and were recognized as such 150 years ago as they are today.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Where all rights come from. A bunch of dudes sitting around who decide who gets rights and who doesn't.

So things like GW crossing the Delaware have nothing to do with the freedoms you enjoy today living on the Native American lands in Wyoming of all places. What a hypocrite you are to live on Native American land after your people committed genocide on them. You should live somewhere that the white man didn't steal the land and maybe I could take you more seriously. But you seem to be enjoying the spoils of people like Custer to much to do that.

I'm being rude I know that, but being an apologist for the past shortcomings of any people doesn't fix the past or the future. It does however create animosity and division. All civilizations have conquered and all have been conquered in similar fashions. Civilizations war with eachother they always have and always will. But by all means enjoy your beer in honor of the tribes you mentioned. I'll enjoy mine in honor of all involved in a trying time of history that I wasn't present for and have no idea of the state of mind people were in, the fears they had, the orders they were under, or a sense of the propaganda that was being shoved down their throats everyday.

 

[rwc101]

If anyone is interested in history that is neither based off of bad 1950s westerns or kumbaya "Indians were perfect and peaceful" hippie drivel:

 

[Doublecluck]

I think the important caveat here is that there are people alive today that had there lives torn apart by this "forced assimilation".

Whole thing hits different when it's family members you know not long dead people in a book.

Obviously, but I think in some way we are all beneficiaries of history both the good and bad. Pretty sure my Jewish great grandmothers and german great grandfathers intent wasn’t to come here and exterminate natives. Not like I can go home and claim my piece of the homeland. History is riddled with atrocities, and this country is far from perfect but it’s pretty damn good in the context of history. How many places on earth exist where people are living just as they did 200 years ago?

 

[rwc101]

So things like GW crossing the Delaware have nothing to do with the freedoms you enjoy today living on the Native American lands in Wyoming of all places. What a hypocrite you are to live on Native American land after your people committed genocide on them. You should live somewhere that the white man didn't steal the land and maybe I could take you more seriously. But you seem to be enjoying the spoils of people like Custer to much to do that.

Start a petition to hand back Wyoming to Native Americans. I'll sign it. You're grasping at straws. I can't change what happened in the past, but I can recognize that none of my rights are predicated on exterminating indigenous peoples.

 

[WildWill]

If anyone is interested in history that is neither based off of bad 1950s westerns or kumbaya "Indians were perfect and peaceful" hippie drivel:

View attachment 186648

For less then $15 I'll give it a read.

 

[rwc101]

For less then $15 I'll give it a read.

Check your local library (or ask them for ILL)!

Sorry. Am librarian.

 

[rwc101]

Obviously, but I think in some way we are all beneficiaries of history both the good and bad. Pretty sure my Jewish great grandmothers and german great grandfathers intent wasn’t to come here and exterminate natives. Not like I can go home and claim my piece of the homeland. History is riddled with atrocities, and this country is far from perfect but it’s pretty damn good in the context of history. How many places on earth exist where people are living just as they did 200 years ago?

None of this is about labeling the country good or bad, but we need to call things for what they were and recognize their ramifications.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

ramifications

Ramification #1 RWC101 living in Wyoming in 2021.

 

[RobertD]

Ramification #1 RWC101 living in Wyoming in 2021.

If that's the case them there are about 330 million ramifications running around in America today...

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Obviously, but I think in some way we are all beneficiaries of history both the good and bad. Pretty sure my Jewish great grandmothers and german great grandfathers intent wasn’t to come here and exterminate natives. Not like I can go home and claim my piece of the homeland. History is riddled with atrocities, and this country is far from perfect but it’s pretty damn good in the context of history. How many places on earth exist where people are living just as they did 200 years ago?

Yeah it get's real weird. I'm not trying to take some moral high ground.

Honestly, I was just pointing out that a lot of the conflicts of that era are still playing out today and as such it's a loaded topic.

Custer represents a lot of things to a lot of people and while I do think @shrapnel was being more academic than anything... too soon?

 

[shrapnel]

Realistically, I have a degree in history. Rape and genocide are not mistakes. They are crimes and were recognized as such 150 years ago as they are today.

It’s time for you to go somewhere else. The point of this thread was nothing more than to recognize the anniversary of the Custer battle and George Custer who has been immortalized for what happened here in Montana, 145 years ago.

Some people hate him, some don’t, I find it compelling to my kinship to Montana and the history and the people who made history.

 

[rwc101]

Ramification #1 RWC101 living in Wyoming in 2021.

 

[rwc101]

It’s time for you to go somewhere else. The point of this thread was nothing more than to recognize the anniversary of the Custer battle and George Custer who has been immortalized for what happened here in Montana, 145 years ago.

Some people hate him, some don’t, I find it compelling to my kinship to Montana and the history and the people who made history.

I'll go somewhere else if Randy tells me to. I'll call out bad, revisionist history until then.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

View attachment 186649

Atleast i have the nutsack to admit that i am here today enjoying freedom because of the acts of different people a lot of them of European descent while still being able to acknowledge that all those acts were not so kind or perfect and I wish they could of played out much differently. I dont hide behind my apologies.