White mtn. Apache elk hunt?

[elkduds]

I hunted the WMAT Sunrise Camp in Sept 2025...this place is a SCAM!!! We had 14-16 hunters in camp..half were 25k "Trophy 385+ Bull hunters" and the rest were "Management" bull hunters for 10k...NOT A SINGLE HUNTER in any camp harvested a bull or even had a shot...that is ridiculous for what they call "the greatest elk hunting on earth"...you will see a lot of Elk but they will only allow you to harvest an 8 year old 5x5 on management and nobody even saw a single bull that fit that description...the "Trophy hunters" not a single one saw anything that was over 385 and none harvested in Sunrise or the other camp and IF you see a bull the guide needs to text a photo to the head guide for you to get permission to shoot that Elk which of course if that happens..you will most likely never find that bull again but to the time it will take to text back and forth. They basically take your money knowing that you will see a lot of elk but that very few will harvest anything. The accommodations were adequate, but I have stayed in better at lower priced hunting camps...the food was good.....my biggest issue with them is their lack of integrity and complete disregard for any accountability whatsoever. Their guide abandoned myself and another tribal member at the top of a mountain on the morning of day 3...we were on our own in the mountains for days..we had no food or water and we were soaked from a hail/rain storm...went hypothermic for 2 days in 30 degree temps...when they found us via Thermal Helicopter at 230am as were were entering day 3...I had some internal organ issues from the hypothermia...they rushed us to the hospital. The head guide Wayne Amos sat by my bed side as the doctors were working on me and promised "I will make this right"..then after I was released from the hospital and we had a dinner on the final night he pulled me aside as did another member of the tribe and again shook my hand and promised they would bring me back for another hunt and to invite a friend as their way of "making it right"...they are LIARS...from what the WMAT investigator told me during the investigation, multiple tribe members LIED by saying they informed my wife that I was missing in the mountains...when I got home I asked my wife and she did not have a single call/text/email (which I shared with the WMAT investigator) per my emergency contact sheet and our local police came to my door at 330am EST and told her I was missing for several days and it may turn into a recovery mission if they don't find me soon and she thought I was dead. For the Tribe to LIE to their own investigator about notifying next of kin is absolutely unacceptable. Six months later I reached out to Wayne and he responded with a nasty email and of course he as the head of the hunt camp took ZERO responsibility for his clear lack of leadership for his hunting operation that he is in charge of. We are both military veterans and he even questioned my USMC military service although we had many discussions in camp about our time in service and the multiple service connected surgeries I have had. Wayne seems like a very nice guy when you talk to him at first, but make no mistake...he is a salesman and will not keep his word. Other hunters from camp reached out to me to see how I was recovering due to the injuries I sustained at WMAT and not a single member of the tribe ever called to see how I was...they did call to interview me for the investigation that was ongoing with local rescue law enforcement authorities as well as WMAT investigators. I have had over 20 medical appointments due to the ongoing issues I have from the hypothermia and WMAT takes ZERO accountability....they did however change their Hunting Operation SOP due to what happened to me. Make no mistake...the Tribe will look out for themselves and only themselves at WMAT and they could care less about any hunters as the other hunters I became friendly with that have hunted there for years have also gotten ignored (per them) since this happened. I do feel bad for the other hunters as WMAT refuses to compensate any of the other hunters that could not hunt due to the multi day rescue searches and these guys paid 10-25k and it was 100% the fault of the WMAT...but those guys got screwed too which is unacceptable for any outfitter, let alone one that claims to be the "Elk Hunting Capitol of the World." What really sucks is the Apache tribe is the ONLY tribe in the US that you cannot take legal action against because they are the only tribe (per attorneys) that will not release their protection of sovereignty from the US Government...this means they can literally kill you and nothing will be done about it (per attorneys from CA, OK, TX, AZ). If you want to fall for their "Elk hunting capitol of the World" best of luck to you...since I was rescued I have been advised that they had another hunter in camp that they also lost in the mountains and he was injured by a gunshot and they luckily found him before he died.....It is disgusting how this operation takes your money knowing they do not have the animals for hunters to harvest as proven by not a single bull from this camp in 2025.

Well, welcome to HT.

 

[Smtn10pt]

If I was left alone in that place for 3 days with a rifle im pretty sure I would have found a bull that met my criteria for whatever hunt I was on.

 

[USMC hunter]

Looks like he cut and pasted it from his thread on RS. Perhaps we will get to hear about all of his other poor experiences on guided hunts, too.

Edit - oops, looks like two of his other three posts were telling us about those bad experiences.

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BTW - when I first read his post on RS, I wondered if popeyoung12 had returned.

Yes, I have posted this one on multiple sites and have gotten lots of hunters reach out with similar complaints about them and other hunters thanking me for saving them money from booking or trying to book with them.....So you think Hunters should only write good reviews on shady and terrible outfitters??? If you actually look, I have commented on OTHER hunters posts/reviews on certain outfitters an shared similar experiences. Do you work for the tribe? You sure seem very offended by something that has nothing to do with you..I also went into the extensive posting history you have on this site and you seem to bitch alot and question others on a regular basis....great way to live being a Karen in a hunting forum. I attached my hospital band from the Tribal hospital since you are a prick...good luck to you

 

[USMC hunter]

White mountain is cheaper than San Carlos but I thought their waitlist was so long they weren’t even taking anymore people on the list.

WMAT is cheaper than San Carlos but they honestly feel they have the same bull quality....having hunted there in Sept 2025...I can tell you there are alot of Elk...but they have over hunted their herd...not a single hunter got a bull and NONE saw anything close to what they get on San Carlos.... White Mountain takes in 10x the amount of hunters that San Carlos does...they sell people on old photos of great bulls...they give a great speech when you arrive...but they are NOT a trophy bull high end hunt anymore

 

[kiwi hunter]

I may be wrong but i looks a few yrs back and they weren't taking any new hunters due to repeat hunters it was 25k for a hunt no idea what it is these days

Holy gamoly, did you say repeat.

 

[cgasner1]

If I was left alone in that place for 3 days with a rifle im pretty sure I would have found a bull that met my criteria for whatever hunt I was on.

The could have followed the trail of dead elk to me. Probably would have been a priority then

 

[BAKPAKR]

Yes, I have posted this one on multiple sites and have gotten lots of hunters reach out with similar complaints about them and other hunters thanking me for saving them money from booking or trying to book with them.....So you think Hunters should only write good reviews on shady and terrible outfitters??? If you actually look, I have commented on OTHER hunters posts/reviews on certain outfitters an shared similar experiences. Do you work for the tribe? You sure seem very offended by something that has nothing to do with you..I also went into the extensive posting history you have on this site and you seem to bitch alot and question others on a regular basis....great way to live being a Karen in a hunting forum. I attached my hospital band from the Tribal hospital since you are a prick...good luck to you

“This is not uncommon. I have researched and hunted with may outfitters and they all are snake oil salesman (ESPECIALLY NEW MEXICO). They will tell you anything to get you to book the hunt, send old or fake photos of elk that have been harvested, give you clients to call for "references" and 99% of the time its their friends or guides taking the calls. I have hunted with outfitters in all price ranges 4k to 20k and they are ALL the same. I went with one this past year that has a show on Sportsman Channel and he was by far the most expensive and nobody in camp saw elk..said he had 100k acres...he had approx 3-5k...his property is the smallest private ranch surrounded by much larger ranches and they have to try to call Elk over from other ranches and IF there is a giant on their land..only the owner gets to take that bull (per the guides). Outfitters are very stingy on their food..doesn't matter what state..always granola bars and muffins (hopefully not stale..but most are) and 1 warm meal if you are lucky. Don't beat yourself up....this is the new norm unfortunately. Private ranch outfitters are really the only way to go..and usually the most expensive. Public land pressure offers a 5% or less chance to punch your tag...doesn't matter what state anymore.”

@USMC hunter, I am pretty sure this was a post of yours from early 2024 (on another forum). Have you ever had a favorable experience on a guided hunt? If not, I have to commend your perseverance.

 

[USMC hunter]

Holy gamoly, did you say repeat.

you are correct...it is invite only...but they are now going the way of the San Carlos (per them)...no more Management hunts (mainly because it is incredibly rare to find an 8 year old 5x5)...still 25k...but having been there...not a single hunter (some that had gone for years ever saw a bull that fit the 385 minimum criteria in Sunrise Camp

 

[USMC hunter]

“This is not uncommon. I have researched and hunted with may outfitters and they all are snake oil salesman (ESPECIALLY NEW MEXICO). They will tell you anything to get you to book the hunt, send old or fake photos of elk that have been harvested, give you clients to call for "references" and 99% of the time its their friends or guides taking the calls. I have hunted with outfitters in all price ranges 4k to 20k and they are ALL the same. I went with one this past year that has a show on Sportsman Channel and he was by far the most expensive and nobody in camp saw elk..said he had 100k acres...he had approx 3-5k...his property is the smallest private ranch surrounded by much larger ranches and they have to try to call Elk over from other ranches and IF there is a giant on their land..only the owner gets to take that bull (per the guides). Outfitters are very stingy on their food..doesn't matter what state..always granola bars and muffins (hopefully not stale..but most are) and 1 warm meal if you are lucky. Don't beat yourself up....this is the new norm unfortunately. Private ranch outfitters are really the only way to go..and usually the most expensive. Public land pressure offers a 5% or less chance to punch your tag...doesn't matter what state anymore.”

@USMC hunter, I am pretty sure this was a post of yours from early 2024 (on another forum). Have you ever had a favorable experience on a guided hunt? If not, I have to commend your perseverance.

Yes...I have several good outfitters (Signal Peak in NM) is excellent...Ripple Creek in Colorado had a good experience and my Newfoundland Guide for Moose, Hawaii for Axis, and many more...just because you choose to look at my responses on others posts or my reviews on awful outfitters does not mean all experiences are negative...but someone has to really be terrible for me to write a review so others do not make the same mistake...hope this clarifies things

 

[Gr8bawana]

So are we to believe that no bulls were taken from the Res. in 2025? I'm quite dubious of your review. 6 out of your 8 posts are nothing but negativity.
Sounds like sour grapes.

 

[elkduds]

I'm at peace with the DIY orientation of HT. U du U

 

[USMC hunter]

So are we to believe that no bulls were taken from the Res. in 2025? I'm quite dubious of your review. 6 out of your 8 posts are nothing but negativity.
Sounds like sour grapes.

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It always amazes me how some "hunters" in this thread like to only focus on the negative. To answer your question...yes not a single hunter in the Sunrise camp harvested a bull or even had a shot at a bull and we had 14-16 in camp. The other camp(from what I was told) did not harvest any bulls while were there either...they did harvest a few bulls later in the season but very few and the majority of hunters did not harvest or even have a shot. On a different note, I am not sure that if you experienced what I went through how that could be seen as "sour grapes"....the medical personnel had to work on me for over 12 hours to stabilize me from what the tribe did....as for me...just like the other jackass that was being nasty in their reply..I have left several good reviews in various threads from other outfitters that I have hunted with both in the US and outside the US...but guys like you focus on the negative is what it seems...best of luck to you

 

[ccc23454]

So are we to believe that no bulls were taken from the Res. in 2025? I'm quite dubious of your review. 6 out of your 8 posts are nothing but negativity.
Sounds like sour grapes.

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I would be sour also with spending $25k for no oppurtunity but then I would look at myself in a mirror and have to kick my own ass for choosing a outfitter anyways. Diy or quit!

 

[BAKPAKR]

@Gr8bawana, I didn’t think you and I would ever be compared to each other, but here we are. It just goes to show that everyone can find something in common.

I do think it is kind of ironic that USMC hunter posted in a thread started by popeyoung12.

 

[cgasner1]

@Gr8bawana, I didn’t think you and I would ever be compared to each other, but here we are. It just goes to show that everyone can find something in common.

I do think it is kind of ironic that USMC hunter posted in a thread started by popeyoung12.

The entire thing seems crazy to me. You can’t kill a bull without sending pic for approval but manage to get lost for 3 days? Obviously had some cell service in there think you’d send a text out. Even on a guided hunt how do you not have for basic first aid-fire starter in the back pack.

 

[CRJR45]

I'm patiently waiting for the -Suck It , no you Suck It , to commence .....