Where does all the rifle BS come from?

[cahunter805]

I understand that many people use KE as a basis for how well a rifle/bullet COULD kill an animal. What I think many people overlook is velocity at that given distance and how that affects the chosen bullet and how that bullets ability to transfer the KE to the animal.

 

[RockinU]

Not an elk, but a mule deer I shot at around 80 yards through the lungs with a .22 magnum...it didn't kill that deer "eventually" it killed it pretty quickly, less than a minute for sure. Deer ran maybe 50 yards, staggered around a bit and died. I've shot deer with a .338 and 250 grain nosler partitions that acted about the same after being shot through the lungs.

Never been a big believer in energy being the measure of how well a particular caliber kills. IMO, and IME, the 3 most important things in killing big game are: shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement. Sample size of a few hundred big-game animals, for the record.

That's pretty cool. I have seen a lot of very similar stuff.

I've also seen deer with both lungs wiped out go a long ways. My dogs once ran a 470 yard track (the dogs traveled 470 yards, the deer actually traveled less) on a deer that a well respected chambering of rifle had penciled through the bottom of the heart. I have no clue how that deer went as far as he did, and left as little blood sign as he did.

I'm glad your experiences have led you to have a strongly held belief system that gives you the confidence to do things the way you do them. My experience with many hundreds of animals has led me to believe that the proper placement of adequate energy is the best way for me, and the way I'm most comfortable with.

 

[RockinU]

I understand that many people use KE as a basis for how well a rifle/bullet COULD kill an animal. What I think many people overlook is velocity at that given distance and how that affects the chosen bullet and how that bullets ability to transfer the KE to the animal.

I agree completely, it doesn't matter how many ft/lbs a given round has when it reaches the target, if it exits the other side still carrying most of that energy with it.

 

[BuzzH]

That's pretty cool. I have seen a lot of very similar stuff.

I've also seen deer with both lungs wiped out go a long ways. My dogs once ran a 470 yard track (the dogs traveled 470 yards, the deer actually traveled less) on a deer that a well respected chambering of rifle had penciled through the bottom of the heart. I have no clue how that deer went as far as he did, and left as little blood sign as he did.

I'm glad your experiences have led you to have a strongly held belief system that gives you the confidence to do things the way you do them. My experience with many hundreds of animals has led me to believe that the proper placement of adequate energy is the best way for me, and the way I'm most comfortable with.

If it was all about energy...wouldn't be a single of head of big-game ever killed with an arrow...

 

[RockinU]

If it was about energy...wouldn't be a single of head of big-game ever killed with an arrow...

I don't want to continue to be argumentative here, but 1. It's energy that delivers the arrow to the target, and causes it to penetrate. 2. Archery kills on a significantly different principle than a rifle.

 

[BuzzH]

I don't want to continue to be argumentative here, but 1. It's energy that delivers the arrow to the target, and causes it to penetrate. 2. Archery kills on a significantly different principle than a rifle.

Disagree on archery killing on a significantly different principle than a rifle. Lungs, heart, blood vessels, and tissue are cut to hell and gone with both a bullet and an arrow. Blood loss and drop in blood pressure kills the hell out of anything that suffers both...whether by arrow or bullet. Suffocation also occurs from both bullets and broadheads, related to internal bleeding via tissue being cut.

 

[Greyman]

Disagree on archery killing on a significantly different principle than a rifle. Lungs, heart, blood vessels, and tissue are cut to hell and gone with both a bullet and an arrow. Blood loss and drop in blood pressure kills the hell out of anything that suffers both...whether by arrow or bullet.

You're leaving out hydrostatic shock, which an arrow has none. When a high velocity bullet hits the chest of an animal, it causes a small impact explosion. This leads to a violent rise in blood pressure and the pressure wave travels up the cardiovascular system into the brain causing CNS damage. This is why you sometimes see an animal drop in its tracks way before it would have died from the local trauma caused by the bullet.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Disagree on archery killing on a significantly different principle than a rifle. Lungs, heart, blood vessels, and tissue are cut to hell and gone with both a bullet and an arrow. Blood loss and drop in blood pressure kills the hell out of anything that suffers both...whether by arrow or bullet. Suffocation also occurs from both bullets and broadheads, related to internal bleeding via tissue being cut.

Truth.

 

[Simeod]

This has been discussed many times. Here is an earlier hunt talk post from somebody who knows much more about it than I do.

Answered: What's enough bullet for Elk? (long read)

Hello, I’ve been seeing a reoccurring theme in questions that relate around the world of ballistics both with my customers, students, and within the questions posed to Randy on his Elk Talk series so I thought I would share some of my knowledge and experience so that others may learn how to...

www.hunttalk.com

 

[BuzzH]

You're leaving out hydrostatic shock, which an arrow has none. When a high velocity bullet hits the chest of an animal, it causes a small impact explosion. This leads to a violent rise in blood pressure and the pressure wave travels up the cardiovascular system into the brain causing CNS damage. This is why you sometimes see an animal drop in its tracks way before it would have died from the localized trauma caused by the bullet.

How much hydrostatic shock is there from a 40 grain hollow point .22 magnum bullet at 80 yards?

How much from a .338 250 grain partition?

Why do deer hit in similar places with both, travel about the same distance after being hit and take about the same amount of time to die?

Answer: hydrostatic shock is wayyyy over played as a cause for death, best case, and probably more in line with a myth.

In both cases those deer died from suffocation, blood loss, and a severe drop in blood pressure...

 

[mtmuley]

You're leaving out hydrostatic shock, which an arrow has none

I want to see proof of "hydrostatic shock". Any links or info? mtmuley

 

[mtmuley]

This has been discussed many times. Here is an earlier hunt talk post from somebody who knows much more about it than I do.

Answered: What's enough bullet for Elk? (long read)

Hello, I’ve been seeing a reoccurring theme in questions that relate around the world of ballistics both with my customers, students, and within the questions posed to Randy on his Elk Talk series so I thought I would share some of my knowledge and experience so that others may learn how to...

www.hunttalk.com

I remember that. He's been gone for two years. mtmuley

 

[Greyman]

I want to see proof of "hydrostatic shock". Any links or info? mtmuley

https://arxiv.org/pdf/0803.3051

 

[mtmuley]

https://arxiv.org/pdf/0803.3051

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html I'll read that. You read this. mtmuley

 

[RockinU]

Disagree on archery killing on a significantly different principle than a rifle. Lungs, heart, blood vessels, and tissue are cut to hell and gone with both a bullet and an arrow. Blood loss and drop in blood pressure kills the hell out of anything that suffers both...whether by arrow or bullet. Suffocation also occurs from both bullets and broadheads, related to internal bleeding via tissue being cut.

Yes, but a broadhead causes it's damage by cutting vital tissue, a bullet causes it's damage by crushing tissue with energy, without the energy to expand the bullet, it pencils through and causes much less damage. The frontal diameter difference between a bullet and a broadhead demonstrate this. This very principle was just taught to my daughter in a bowhunter ed class. I could probably find the material on line in a bit.

 

[RockinU]

How much hydrostatic shock is there from a 40 grain hollow point .22 magnum bullet at 80 yards?

How much from a .338 250 grain partition?

Why do deer hit in similar places with both, travel about the same distance after being hit and take about the same amount of time to die?

Answer: hydrostatic shock is wayyyy over played as a cause for death, best case, and probably more in line with a myth.

In both cases those deer died from suffocation, blood loss, and a severe drop in blood pressure...

You are representing that all deer shot in the manners you describe react in the same way, and in my experience, that's just not the case.

 

[BuzzH]

A bullet also causes tissue damage from cutting, not crushing...run your finger across the edge of an expanded copper bullet, a bone shard, or a even a piece of expanded lead...then find a band-aid.

Odd that nobody seems to take a look at wound channels and what causes same.

 

[BrentD]

Is that bow hunter pulling a Tejas heart shot?

Given that he is on a horse, it's not prehistoric. Just sayin'

 

[BuzzH]

You are representing that all deer shot in the manners you describe react in the same way, and in my experience, that's just not the case.

I've shot a metric shit-ton of elk, deer, pronghorn, etc...seen at least that many more shot. Very similar results from .22 rimfire to .22 centerfires, to .243, to .257, to .284, .30, .338 across a broad range of velocities, bullet types, bullet weights.

If shock and velocity were significant to lethality, then I would expect to see an 80lb pronghorn absolutely crushed by a .257 weatherby when lung shot via a 100 grain bullet traveling at 3700FPS. Yet, I've witnessed many, many times they run the standard 40-50 yards before dying. About the same as shooting them with a 7-08 in the same spot with a 140 grain bullet at 2900 fps. About the same as shooting them with a 180 grain 30/06 at 2700 fps. About the same as shooting them with a 100 grain .243 at 3000 fps. About the same as shooting them through the lungs with a broadhead.

That leads me to believe, that shot placement matters a whole lot more than anything else and they're all dying from the same thing...blood loss/suffocation/massive drop in blood pressure.

Hits to the CNS also result in largely the same thing from all those rifles I mentioned as well...meaning, they incapacitate the animal via the exact same thing, trauma to brain or spine.

 

[RockinU]

A bullet also causes tissue damage from cutting, not crushing...run your finger across the edge of an expanded copper bullet, a bone shard, or a even a piece of expanded lead...then find a band-aid.

Odd that nobody seems to take a look at wound channels and what causes same.

I've examined quite a few wound channels, it's what led to my interest in this. I also have a fair collection of recovered expanded bullets, some of which are remarkable for their smooth mushrooming.

We can do this all night. I haven't experienced the "always" and "nevers" that you seem to be finding. In my experience nearly identical situations, and hits can have drastically different results, making definitive conclusions like you are asserting questionable to me.