Where does all the rifle BS come from?

[AvidIndoorsman]

Serious question here, am I missing some trove of research done by the US military or something. Gun writers like Chuck Hawks, and for that matter pretty much everything you read in gun/hunting mags/state website publish numbers the same numbers like they are gospel.

Is everything you read out there just some WAGS from the 70s or is there actually data behind it?

Eg. You need 1000 ft/lbs of impact to ethically kill a a deer.

The whole idea of Class I, II, III, IV game... and what section density you need to use.

Bullet weight and construction.

I guess what I'm asking is; there are these commonly accepted numbers used in the industry, but we know you 'can' kill an elk with a .22lr, so did someone actually do some science to figure out some of these benchmarks? We have the age old caliber/bullet/velocity/ etc debate on this site all the time, but I can't seem to find anything to suggest anyone in the industry is using anything other than conjecture and/or anecdotal evidence.


Educate me.

 

[bushman13]

Hemingway took birdshot into the bush to dispatch wounded leopards...

I think a lot of it is lore. The one thing I noticed from back in the day is the average hunter did not understand bullet density for the most part. But the pro's did. A lot of the lore might just have been average hunters trying to figure out the game.

Also a lot of the data probably came from people testing on cows and such, stuff we cant do anymore.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Also a lot of the data probably came from people testing on cows and such, stuff we cant do anymore.

Exactly what I was wondering, was there some cow study I’ve never heard about. Like you here some of these numbers said with such authority, I figured I was missing something.

 

[bushman13]

search "bullet testing live animals", there seems to be modern and old data still available.

 

[Rancho Loco]

Don't do Chuck Hawks. Just don't.

 

[come2elmo]

Don't do Chuck Hawks. Just don't.

Anyone who doesn’t see the value in Tikka’s , 6.5 man bun, or flat bill ball caps (I don’t have any real evidence of his views on flat bills but he seems crotchety enough to not like them) is alright in my book.

 

[belshawelk]

Best education is to hunt in a variety of terrain. Killing an elk harder than most think. Bullet construction mean everything. Then come hunt with me on my property and unless you are real lucky you'll never get a shot under 250. Most will be 350-450.

Over many many years of hunting and guiding elk and seeing dozens and dozens shot, I wont be under gunned. I am a believer in bullet construction and the energy behind it. How much is needed? I dunno, I use a lot because I have too many really well hit big bulls run off when or go down only to get back up from some really really popular rounds.

P.S. growing up I watched my dad shoot dozens of deer between 25 and 100 yards with only iron sights.. Every one with a .22LR shot in the head. None took a step. I cant shoot like him, so I wont try

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Best education is to hunt in a variety of terrain. Killing an elk harder than most think. Bullet construction mean everything. Then come hunt with me on my property and unless you are real lucky you'll never get a shot under 250. Most will be 350-450.

Over many many years of hunting and guiding elk and seeing dozens and dozens shot, I wont be under gunned. I am a believer in bullet construction and the energy behind it. How much is needed? I dunno, I use a lot because I have too many really well hit big bulls run off when or go down only to get back up from some really really popular rounds.

P.S. growing up I watched my dad shoot dozens of deer between 25 and 100 yards with only iron sights.. Every one with a .22LR shot in the head. None took a step. I cant shoot like him, so I wont try

Lol so it’s all WAGS then?

 

[Scarey]

I think it all comes down to personal preference and the fact that some are privileged with having a platform to express their opinion.

 

[HuntTalk Freak]

I think it comes down to hearsay and personal experience. For example down here in TX on another forum people said a 223 won’t kill hogs, they just take the bullet and keep on living. Well I started a thread showing that’s just not true and I’ve killed a lot of hogs with a 223/5.56 out of a short barreled rifle using FMJ ammo with pictures to prove it. It went a dozen pages or so and still to this day people still argue the point.

Same with deer, I’ve killed a equal amount with 223, 243, 6.5 and 308. All dead, all within average shot distances and average recovery distances.

A lot of it is common sense though. I’m not going to shoot a elk 800yds away with a 5.56; a person yes, a animal I’m wanting to recover, no.

 

[3855WIN]

Col. Whelen, of .35 Whelen Fame, said that we needed 1,000 ft LBs to kill big game.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Rules of thumb are not hard fast law. They are more theory than law. They are mostly correct but still subject to nuance.

 

[beginnerhunter]

I thought it was based on ballistic gel testing, possibly with bone simulation I guess. Penetration, expansion, fragmentation, etc. I figured that was extrapolated to game sizes and combined with real world observations. But I'm not a gun nut or anything.

 

[Bluejeep]

I stand to the theory...

Overkill is under rated.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Serious question here, am I missing some trove of research done by the US military or something. Gun writers like Chuck Hawks, and for that matter pretty much everything you read in gun/hunting mags/state website publish numbers the same numbers like they are gospel.

Is everything you read out there just some WAGS from the 70s or is there actually data behind it?

Eg. You need 1000 ft/lbs of impact to ethically kill a a deer.

The whole idea of Class I, II, III, IV game... and what section density you need to use.

Bullet weight and construction.

I guess what I'm asking is; there are these commonly accepted numbers used in the industry, but we know you 'can' kill an elk with a .22lr, so did someone actually do some science to figure out some of these benchmarks? We have the age old caliber/bullet/velocity/ etc debate on this site all the time, but I can't seem to find anything to suggest anyone in the industry is using anything other than conjecture and/or anecdotal evidence.


Educate me.

How dare you think critically.
All I know is that there is no free lunch, EVERYTHING is a compromise. Energy, velocity, recoil, bc, construction, cost, etc. Just depends where you like to draw your lines.

 

[std7mag]

If you follow the retained weight of bullet theory, you'd be surprised at how many animals are taken with fragmentating bullets.

I always heard the generic rule of 1,500 ftlbs of energy for an elk.

Then some lady goes and drops one 684 yards away with a 243.

 

[sbhooper]

Most of it is just rule of thumb, that someone just threw out there, I think. About the time that you think that it is gospel, some unknowing individual kills a deer at 300 yards with a 30-30.

 

[FLS]

It’s mostly crap that gets regurgitated over and over.
There are a few actual studies s that state DNRs have done. All of them come to basically the same conclusions. Shot placement is way more important than caliber.

 

[noharleyyet]

....comes from vaxxers and round earthers.

 

[rwc101]

All big game animals read Chuck Hawks so they know which cartridges they should die from.