Where do you draw the line ?

[Doug]

I don't know if your bear is a trophy or not Bill. It depends if it was a National Park bear. I'd think that a National Park bear couldn't be considered a trophy, because it wasn't really a free range bear. It may have been a semi-tame bear that just wandered off the big game preserve that we call Teton National Park. That'd be like picking up a big drunk chick along the highway because her car ran out of gas........Right?

 

[Washington Hunter]

Doug, the scenario you brought up, for one thing would not be legal, and technically would be considered POACHING, so therefore it could not be considered hunting. Also I don't know any hunters who would want to pay thousands of dollars for a lame experience like that. Elkhunters bear, while similar to your elk "hunt" scenario, is different in that he didn't break any laws shooting that bear, and he didn't spend thousands of dollars to have a "guide" hold his hand while he shot it.

 

[Seldom Ever]

Whatever makes your boat float,long as it's legal. I like hunting wild game in there own element, but I have shot wild deer grazing in a pasture on private land as well.I see nothing wrong with it.I am an opportunist,if it's legal, I'm going to kill it.Opportunities are too few in my neck of the woods to pass anything up.I wouldn't do a fenced hunt because it's not my thing and I can't afford it.If it was offered to me freely,I'd probably give it more serious thought.I do think there is a vast difference between a trophy killed in the wild,and one killed on a canned hunt.I see no difference between Bill's bear and one killed in the wild over bait,with hounds,or stalking on foot, it's all a matter of opportunity,which is all hunting is anyway,being in the right place at the right time. Congrats on a fine bear Bill,if it was in my back yard I'd have killed it too,and been just as proud.It's all about opportunity.Fenced hunts just seem to give the appearance of upping the percentage of opportunities.

Once I was helping a friend kill some cattle.We had all 5 of them lined up side by side feeding on sileage. My friend bounced a round off of number 5 for a reason that escapes me now,the cow moved it's head or something.Anyhow,that ol cow took off like a scalded dog.We hunted that thing like a deer for 3 solid days, with deer rifles, on 250 acres of fenced property.In those 3 days I was the only one who saw it,twice,but only after it saw me first and took off,before I could get a shot.I finally told my friend the thing for him to do was put some nice oats in the feed bin in the barn and wait on it at night [that's right,the cow turned nocturnal believe it or not!]and kill it when it came in the barn.He did,and it died the same night.

This leads me to believe that a fenced hunt can be tough,and probably satisfying,provided all other aspects of it are fair chase [ no baiting,etc.].

I don't think anybody should assume a kid dying of cancer who wants to kill an elk on a canned hunt is "full of hatred".Maybe he's just a kid with a lifelong dream who'd like to do something worthwhile before he passes on to the other side. I think anyone who ridicules a man who spends so much time trying to make the dreams of those type of kids come true,is an insensitive asshole and maybe a trophy killer,but definitely not a real hunter.When it comes down to it,all someone like that is, is an asshole with some big horns on his wall.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-20-2004 14:31: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]</font>

 

[Doug]

Doug, the scenario you brought up, for one thing would not be legal, and technically would be considered POACHING, so therefore it could not be considered hunting.

What if I got out of the truck before I shot the elk that was munching the hay bale? Would that be a real hunt then?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-19-2004 19:58: Message edited by: Doug ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

Doug, yes...but only a moron would pay thousands of dollars for an experience like that.

 

[Moosie]

Only a moron with no Money would make a Statement like that

You guys are Messed up in your thinking...

You're saying a Ranch hunt, no matter what size it is "ISN'T" hunting, yet Driving up a Road shooting a Elk off a Bale of hay on a late winter hunt is ?

This must be the Blooper show and some of you guys were hired to say Stupid things ? OK, Were is the Hidden Camera, GIGS up !!!!

 

[Doug]

I'm just screwing with you Elk Gods.

Stop down in the varmint section and learn how to hunt coyotes if you really want to go on a "real" hunt.

Doug

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-19-2004 20:53: Message edited by: Doug ]</font>

 

[JoseCuervo]

Moosie,

What are you trying to do, kill every thread going????

 

[Moosie]

I'm just trying to LEARN what "REAL HUNTING" is, All these years I thought gonig out and Doing legal hunting and Having a Good time was REAL hunting...

I'm now learning it's not !!! FEED my mind, Maybe I'll change my thinking

 

[Moosie]

HEY THETONE, "If you "need" to kill something that bad and call it a trophy get in the cattle business. A nice texas longhorn would make a dandy "trophy" and be about as much fun to kill as a tame elk."

Some people do Shoot Cows... Big deal to you and me right.. BUT since it's not an ELK or deer we're not fighting to stop that now, are we ? Who cares is Someone wants to shoot a Tame Elk ? It might be like Shooting a Tame Cat... And lemme tell ya, Although it doesn't cost more then a Bullet or two, It's still fun

Well, I'm going outside to Run to my 4-wheeler, MAke sure it still runs for my ranch hunting. Then running back in to See if I've Killed this thread like Gunner said...

So far I'm 4 for 4......

Also, OAK, I think "YOU PEOPLE" should take to US PEOPLE and Talk about a 'Lope hunt sometime. MAybe US PEOPLE can Convice YOU PEOPLE how Wrong you are... or Visa Versa ...

 

[Washington Hunter]

Moosie, So you would pay thousands of dollars to have a "guide" drive you up to an elk and shoot it out the window? Although I think a guy who would throw away money like that is a moron, I don't see anything wrong with killing a WILD elk that way. After all, elk meat is for eating, and hunters are for keeping elk populations at a level that available habitat can support, so who cares how easy or difficult a hunt is. Moosie, I know you're not stupid, why is it that you can't understand the difference between hunting wild elk and domestic elk? Wild elk are where they are by their choice. Domestic elk are there because they can't get out of the fence. What I am against is the private ownership of elk, not the shooting of them. Slydog talks about how difficult it is "hunting" on that ranch. Makes no difference to me. The elk are privately owned livestock, and that is what I don't agree with.

Doug, I do want to get into coyote hunting...I'll check out the varmint forum, thanks

 

[Oak]

Elkfarmer, I totally agree. RFW is a crock. Why should the landowners be getting all those guaranteed licenses that are good for three months? I knew that if we tried, we could find something to agree on.

Oscar, I don't know a thing about antelope hunting. I've often thought of taking it up, but wouldn't know where to start.

Oak

 

[Moosie]

Washington Hunter, I never Said I'd hunt a Game ranch for Elk. Matter of Fact, If I won a hunt like that I'd donate it to Someone else. What I am For is hunting and Having fun.

Some People don't understand that Getting up before 3AM, Hiking 3.5 hours in the light snow, Wet, Cold Fighting to get ahead of other hunters in the Heart of Big Elk country to POP up on an Elk coverd in Snow that Doesn;t know you're around. Getting into Position and Watching it for 10 Seconds before the 6th Sense of the Majestic Critter "FEELS" something isn't right and Shakes the Lighly covered snow off it's back as it Stands to Find deeper cover. As it walks away You pull the Trigger of your 300 Win MAg and Watch the Animal Take a Hit right in the vitals and then Tracking it the 100 Yards it went and standing over it with the Joy in your Heart and knowing that you've just taken one of Gods Creatures 8 miles Back in some Ungodly Place. then The Grueling task of Deboning it up and Splitting the elk with a Great Hunting buddy and spending the rest of the Day Packing it out and Talking about Hunts past and such...

Some people Don't know How Great that is...

Although, Some People don't need to know. thats Why It's Special to Guys like Me and You.

Some People Ride skate boards and Are happy, Some people Bikes, Other cars and Other Trucks. I'm not here to Tell someone which way is Right. I'm going to support any way Of transportation as long as it doesn't Affect me. Same with Hunting and Fishing. If someone Gets their Jollies from Shooting a Deer out of A treestand, Someone else Likes to Hike 8 miles in And pack it out on their back, Still others Like to go to Ranches and Shoot a elk there.

I haven't seen were Elk Ranching has Hurt anything I do. Therefor, I'm not against them. Wheather I have the Money to hunt one or not is Irrelevent. Also, Wheather I will ever hunt one..or not, Is also Irrelevant. I don't have any hard Feelings if Someone Buys a Cow and Walkes up to it and Shoots it, Just like I don't have any hard Feelings for someone that Soots a Elk on a ranch. Be it a 5x5 pen, or a 5,000 mile x 5,000 Mile ranch.

If they are Having fun, And it's not bothering me, and it's Legal, I'm OK with it. Thats were I stand..

I also Am OK with Someone Poaching a Doe for Food. Now, Thats a New Topic, Care to debate that

 

[Point Creep]

Oh, the "Ranching For Rich Guys" programs. Doesn't Colorado and Utah have that going? That sounds like another fun thread.

Seldomquiver: "Maybe he's just a kid with a lifelong dream who's like to do something worthwhile befoe he passes on to the other side.."

Damn! Why not take the kid out for something really worthwhile.. like some HOOKERS! Or maybe smoking a little crack cocaine!

OK so I'm an insensitive asshole. But I tell ya if my Grandma's last lifelong wish before she goes is to snuggy up to 5 nude chippendale dancers, I sure the hell ain't taking her. Maybe that good samaritan of a man, slydog can do it.

Moosie, what late elk hunts are that cakewalk easy that you are talking about? I've been on a lot of MT late season bull and cow hunts, more than half were skunked. None were easy. I suppose they could be if you bank on some real luck and want to sit in the truck and cross your fingers.

Here's the current local late hunt results, one migrating Yellowstone Park elk, the other Ted Turner's Flying D Ranch cow and bull hunts. Note the success rate and note the number of bulls taken on the Gardiner hunt per the number of either-sex permit holders. And trust me the average bull killed is probably no better than 300. I'd be interested to see just how many of them drove up and shot a big bull eating hay. Very few, if any. I'd guess zero.

Here's some real numbers. Hopefully now slydog will show us his bullshit stats on 80% of all game farms donate hunts to the sick, disabled, and dying.

MT late elk hunt current results for 03-04

 

[Washington Hunter]

Good post Moosie, that's one of the longest ones I've seen from you

So if Idaho made game farm "hunts" illegal, then would you be against shooting tame elk? You said as long as somebody is having fun and it's legal, you're ok with it. So how about just making it illegal like Montana did, you would agree with that too, just because it is the law?

 

[A-con]

Elkfarmer,
It might be a "Right" to go hunting, but it isn't a right to kill a trophy.
What I'm afriad of is that eventuality, elk will become so valuable that all elk will be behind fences.

Doug,
Yes
The differenc between shooting a wild bull eating a farmers hay, or on a migration is that those bulls have the ability to escape, to run to the next county if they want to. If I'm smart enough, or rich enough to do it, than I've hunted them in a way. The elk behind the fence can only run as far as the fence.

Oak, Their kinda like giant prairie dogs that run really fast.

 

[A-con]

RFW, or CWMU really can be like shooting fish in a barrel, but it dosn't cross this line, at least not to me.
Year before last, I drove through a RFW in Co. and saw a B&C class mule deer standing on the side of the road, not thirty yds away. He didn't run, or even seek cover, he just stood there. ( $ 5K and he could have been mine from the window of my truck)

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-19-2004 22:44: Message edited by: A-con ]</font>

 

[Erik in AK]

A few of you have stated on this and other related threads that "...as long as its legal..." etc. To that I say just because something is legal doesn't mean its the right thing to do. Or, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

All of us who come out against fenced hunts are being accused of trying to "dictate" to the pro-fencers. Not true, at least not in my case. I don't agree with fenced hunts because they cater to the lazy and are helping, I think, to end hunting as we know it.

Many of you pro-fence guys are posing the semi-tame/conditioned bull on public land shot along the road as a comparison and justification, so I ask this--of all the really big bull elk (say 340+) killed in a given year in the west on public land, how many fit the hay bale scenario? Few if any is my guess.

For me an animal's trophy status aside from its physical dimensions has always been a factor of how much effort was put into the kill. Yes, its subjective, and yes its just my opinion but I suspect I'm not alone. Putting yourself into position to have a reasonable opportunity at a quality animal on public land takes work. If you hire an outfitter it still takes work. You're paying him for his knowledge of the area was gained by work.

I have killed two wall-worthy mulies in my life. Neither is spectacular B&C wise. The first was the biggest deer I'd ever killed at the time. I stumbled across him driving home on the last day of the season. He was pre-occupied with some does. I got out of the truck, walked off the shoulder(as required by law) and shot him at 80 or so yards. Oh I was all kinds of twitterpated for the next few months and told the story and showed his picture to everybody, but as the years accumulate and I look back he becomes less of a trophy. I really didn't work for that buck. He's my dumb-luck buck.

My other decent buck is my 50-mile buck. I got to hunt in the Rock Creek area of Montana in 93. I covered a lot of ground that hunt and passed up a few small bucks. I cut a big track in fresh snow on the morning of the 6th day and followed it. 2 hours later I bumped him from his bed, over the ridge and into the next drainage. I slowed down, got careful and after 3 more hours of cat-creeping and finally belly crawling to get into position to shoot, killed him. Of course he was about as far away from a road as he could be and of course I didn't bring a pack frame. The work to get him was doubled to get him out.

"Good for you" you say

My point is that even though both bucks are about the "same" as they hang on my wall the Montana buck is more of a trophy. Getting him was more of an accomplishment because of the work.

So what if that whole area had been inside a fence. Would my experience have been different? In terms of personal effort probably not. But being behind a fence would have changed my perception and certainly my expectations.

Also, not every hunt has to be some backpacking, near death epic. There is something to be said for hunting after work in an are you know well. Maybe your own land or a friends or a little pocket of public land that the crowds overlook. Sometimes the goal is taking a meat animal and reducing the amount of effort is a practical matter but then meat hunters don't pay 8 grand to hang a 370 class bull up in their office.

These fenced operations are businesses not philanthropies. If they take a dying or crippled kid out more than likely someone or some organization is paying for it, or they're doing it for PR to generate more paying clients. Like any business they're there to make a profit. They rely on successful clients for the type of positive advertising that generates follow-on clients. If a fenced operation was so big as to contain an entire elk ecosystem and hunting these elk was "just like on public land" except without the public competition, what would be the draw? 8 grand to maybe kill a better than average bull? Most of these places "guarantee" a kill. Why? Because the owners control the environment and the elk eventually become habituated to the fence. The elk on these places are fed, usually to enhance antler growth but fed nontheless. How is a fed elk in a fenced enclosure not at least semi-tame.

Elkfarmer, how big is your place in Medina? 120 acres? Did you turn an old dairy farm into an "elk ranch"? Who's your client base? Goombahs from the city with shiney new Lazzeroni's or Wall Street types fresh from the pages of Cabela's? Property taxes are pretty steep in NY. How many hunts do you have to sell just to break even?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-20-2004 05:07: Message edited by: Erik in AK ]</font>

 

[beardown]

If you guys want to shoot something behind a fence why not get a partime job working with a cattle butcher? I'm sure it would be just as challenging!.....I mean you do have to pack that heavy sack of oats out in the field. Then you have to call them in. Then when they stick their head down in the oats, you have to sneek up, put the barrel right behind its head and make sure you have a good line of fire......than BAMMM!!!!! Lights out baby!!!!! Plus they do taste so much better when you shoot them yourself!!

 

[Seldom Ever]

We're talking about kids who've barely had a chance to live, greenhorn,not your granny,who has already lived her life.If your child was dying of cancer,would you do everything you could to fulfill his/her last wish,provided it wasn't illegal or totally immoral ? I don't believe I've read a story yet of a kid wanting a hooker,crack cocaine,or chippendale dancers,but if slydog should run into a dying kid with a wish like that,at least now slydog knows who to contact with the request.

Figured you for a chippendale man,how long you been watching'em in your spare time ?