http://www.sltrib.com/news/3287281-155/utah-commission-votes-to-sue-feds
Yes sir it is official - The inmates have overtaken the asylum.
Yes sir it is official - The inmates have overtaken the asylum.
Utah - A special kind of crazy
- Thread starter Big Fin
- Start date
grizzly_
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2013
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- 1,210
As a lifelong Utah resident, but not a church-goer, I still highly doubt the LDS church has anything to do with the land grab. I do believe that the church influence breeds a culture of unquestioning loyalty to authority figures as well as a perceived duty to vote Republican.
The way to defeat this in Utah is through public-awareness, as the average Utahan does not want privatized land, they just don't know why they should be against it. Those are two different things entirely. I've yet to talk to anybody that still supports the land grab once they learn about it, but the average Utahan thinks, "My political party says this is a good thing, so I guess it is."
The Herald Journal (Logan, Utah) has recently run an above-the-fold, front page article in the Sunday paper about ALC. That lead to multiple Letters To The Editor, an "Our View" editorial, an op-ed piece from a contributing writer, and coverage on the local talk radio program.
Now just think how many trucks in Utah are already sporting a sticker with a set of elk or deer antlers. If we combine the type of negative media publicity above with a "Hunters Against Land Grab" bumper sticker on each of those trucks and some yard signs saying the same slogan in hunter's front yards... we can actually raise awareness of this issue.
I would love to see BHA, RMEF, or UWC or somebody like that create a bunch of stickers and yard signs we could all start rockin' to show our support of public lands.
Maybe SFW will hand the bumper stickers out at the Expo in February
The way to defeat this in Utah is through public-awareness, as the average Utahan does not want privatized land, they just don't know why they should be against it. Those are two different things entirely. I've yet to talk to anybody that still supports the land grab once they learn about it, but the average Utahan thinks, "My political party says this is a good thing, so I guess it is."
The Herald Journal (Logan, Utah) has recently run an above-the-fold, front page article in the Sunday paper about ALC. That lead to multiple Letters To The Editor, an "Our View" editorial, an op-ed piece from a contributing writer, and coverage on the local talk radio program.
Now just think how many trucks in Utah are already sporting a sticker with a set of elk or deer antlers. If we combine the type of negative media publicity above with a "Hunters Against Land Grab" bumper sticker on each of those trucks and some yard signs saying the same slogan in hunter's front yards... we can actually raise awareness of this issue.
I would love to see BHA, RMEF, or UWC or somebody like that create a bunch of stickers and yard signs we could all start rockin' to show our support of public lands.
Maybe SFW will hand the bumper stickers out at the Expo in February
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Airborne
New member
Dukes. That was not intended to be a rant or troll or anything of the sort, just wanted to give some insite into the politics here. I have nothing against my church or its members. I'm actually impressed with how slick and unassuming they are with their power.
That last artical Randy posted has a ton of comments that are also worth reading though.
I am curious about something though and have never been able to find anything on. when and how did the church buy all the church land in Utah? I bought the onxmaps recently and had no idea there was so much church owned land. Did they buy state land or private land? I noticed a lot of it is adjacent to state lands. And it makes me curious is all
That last artical Randy posted has a ton of comments that are also worth reading though.
I am curious about something though and have never been able to find anything on. when and how did the church buy all the church land in Utah? I bought the onxmaps recently and had no idea there was so much church owned land. Did they buy state land or private land? I noticed a lot of it is adjacent to state lands. And it makes me curious is all
elkantlers
Well-known member
All you ever wanted to know...
"Deseret Live Stock Company” was formed in 1891 by group of prominent Mormon Pioneer families which included the Hatch's, Moss's, and Moyle's. It served as a summer range for sheep, with headquarters in Woods Cross, Utah. Following ownership by two other entities, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints purchased the ranch in 1983. “Deseret Land & Livestock” (DLL) is managed by Farm Management Company, a tax-paying entity of the Church. Following incorporation as a sheep ranch in 1891, Deseret Live Stock Company purchased 17,640 acres of land in Rich county and by the end of that same year, owned nearly 29,000 sheep. In 1892 the land holdings increased again and the sheep herd had grown to 39,000 head. Low wool prices and the harsh winter of 1893 caused delay in the plan for growth for a short period, but by the end of the 1890's the company had diversified by establishing a company store which served the employees, stockholders and general public. This period was also the beginning of a cattle enterprise by buying 100 steers in 1897.
By 1903 the land holdings had grown and the sheep herd had increased to about 60,000 ewes but a severe scabies epidemic reduced the sheep herd to 45,000 head. The period following World War I was marked by rapid growth of the company spurred by high prices for wool, beef, and mutton. By 1924 the sheep herd was at 45,000 head and the management had increased the cattle herd to 3,000. Surviving the depression and drought of the 1930's was perhaps the greatest financial challenge the Company had experienced to date.
World War II again stimulated high prices for the company's products and prosperity brought further growth. Unable to find exact documentation for size and scope of Deseret Live Stock Company in the early 50's, it is safe to say that the company owned land in Utah, Wyoming and Nevada along with at least seven counties within those states. Past employees who attended the Centennial Celebration of Deseret in 1991 talked of sheep numbers exceeding 65,000 head with some claiming the number was near 90,000. The cattle numbers at the peak of this era may have reached near 5,000 head. Some evidence exists that the total private acreage owned in the three states exceeded 350,000 acres by 1950.
During the Garff, Freed, and Robinson years (1953-1974), the ranch's cattle herd was increased and sheep numbers were reduced. Range reseeding, sage brush spraying, stock water development and fencing, especially on the east half of the ranch, generated increased cattle forage, and Desert Livestock Company become known more as cattle ranch than a sheep ranch. During this period, cross-breeding was introduced to the ranch from the traditional Hereford breed. With the purchase of land and a feedlot in Malta, Idaho, the ranch extended ownership into a fourth state and an eighth county. During this era the peak livestock numbers included 29,000 sheep and 6,000 cattle. This period of ownership also started the practice of selling deer hunting access to the public.
In 1974 Joseph Hotung, a Hong Kong businessman of some renown, purchased the bigger portion (201,000 acres) of the east ranch from Garff, Freed, and Robinson who kept the Skull Valley Ranch and the Heiners Canyon unit on the south end of the east ranch. Hotung bought 4,000 cows and 10,000 sheep from the previous owners, along with the land. Deseret Livestock Ltd. hired a professional management company from Denver to put in place a new management strategy. Sheep numbers declined from 1974 to 1982 until the sheep (the animals that had paid for the ranch twice) were gone. Cattle numbers also declined during that period to about 2,600 by 1983. An entirely different management scheme had come into play for wildlife and especially big game, locking the gates, actively managing for wildlife values, and limiting access to only paying customers.
In 1983 Mr. Hotung sold Deseret Livestock Ltd. to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints who recognized that they were not only buying the largest contiguous block of private land in the state but also an historic property put together by pioneer members of their faith. The purchase was a turn-key deal that included the buildings, equipment and 2,600 cows with the accompanying bulls and replacement heifers. Under the management of Farm Management Company, a tax paying entity of the Church, some of the practices that had begun during Mr. Hotung's ownership continued, including a continuation and expansion of the wildlife program. Particular emphasis was placed on growing the cattle enterprise, cutting costs, and achieving profitability.
The LDS Church ownership era has been marked by conscientious business practices including strategic planning, cost control, increased production, and accountability. Emphasis on holistic management has brought a uniqueness to the ranch that is attractive to visitors from many walks of life.
Today Deseret Land & Livestock serves as a legacy to the owners, managers, and employees for the past 112 years.
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
Careful we don't want the servers to get attacked again:W:
Airborne
New member
Wow, thank you for that info on DLL. I think that monte crisco would have much less in the way of deer and elk without that huge track of land that basically protects them from the herds of road hunters up there every October. But I'd be happier with them if they didn't heard the elk back into the ranch with their helocopter right before the hunt. But no one with athority will do anything about that.
So the majority opinion is that this case will fail in court. So do we just laugh at the waste of money or do we do something about it?
Dukes...I've avoided any political activism my whole life, I don't even vote anymore. What's your thoughts on meaning full action? I agree with grizzly's thoughts on awareness, and that being a big problem. I never paid anyattintion to the whole states land grab thing until I listened to the podcast Sir BigFin did on the issue. I was of nieve enough to believe that nothing would change, anyone who gave me five minutes to talk about sure changed their minds and fast, a few just laughed and said the church would never allow the state to do that and no one has anything to worry about. Well after the podcast sank in, dang it I'm worried.
So the majority opinion is that this case will fail in court. So do we just laugh at the waste of money or do we do something about it?
Dukes...I've avoided any political activism my whole life, I don't even vote anymore. What's your thoughts on meaning full action? I agree with grizzly's thoughts on awareness, and that being a big problem. I never paid anyattintion to the whole states land grab thing until I listened to the podcast Sir BigFin did on the issue. I was of nieve enough to believe that nothing would change, anyone who gave me five minutes to talk about sure changed their minds and fast, a few just laughed and said the church would never allow the state to do that and no one has anything to worry about. Well after the podcast sank in, dang it I'm worried.
bigskyblueman
Member
Any lawsuit intended to to reach the U.S. Supreme Court has to begin somewhere, as that is the intended final destination, and it should come as no surprise if this particular court overturns the heritage of public federal land. 14 million pales in comparison to the true value of the land.
A couple of interesting side notes...
The State was offered the ranch for $25 Million in '83, but instead bought Antelope Island. The ranch harboring elk/deer became a huge problem when it was owned by Mr. Hotung. The DWR finally convinced him to open it up to some public hunting. IIRC, he charged $20/car for folks to hunt it. A offer was made to buy the ranch for $125 Million in the early 2000's by none other than the NFL. Yes, the National Football League!
Also to be noted, this ranch and others owned by the church that are "for profit" ranches are managed quite a bit different than those that are "welfare" ranches (term I was told by the guy that ran one). The "welfare" ranches are a bit more focused on livestock production and the food is used to stock the Bishop's Stores (I think I have that name right).
As far as I know, all the ranches in northern Utah were private lands that were sold. There have been land trades conducted to consolidate lands with both the state and federal agencies.
One last one. A man was killed on what is now Deseret Land and Livestock way back in the day that shares my last name! He was part of a posse that was assembled to ride down a group of guys that had stole some stawberries in Heber. The chase led them to a dairy. One of those being chased peaked around a shed and fired a long shot with his pistol killing a man in the posse. I've yet to be there, but I've been told there is a monument for the man still on the place.
http://business.utah.gov/programs/office-of-outdoor-recreation/companies/ Also, Huntin' Fool, Hunter's Trailhead, goHUNT, etc.
When are these folks going to step up?
When are these folks going to step up?
BuzzH
Well-known member
Back on track, after reading the comments on the article, I would say some Utah Politicians would be wise to take note.
The good part of the comments, is that I don't think most that are against this 14 million dollar toilet flush, are even Sportsmen.
Sounds to me like they're fed up with Ken Ivory, Gov. Herbert, Mike Noel, and the rest of the Utah Land Grab clown car.
The good part of the comments, is that I don't think most that are against this 14 million dollar toilet flush, are even Sportsmen.
Sounds to me like they're fed up with Ken Ivory, Gov. Herbert, Mike Noel, and the rest of the Utah Land Grab clown car.
Big Sky Dreamin
Member
That list of businesses is a great opportunity for those of us outside of Utah to apply some pressure. Let those companies know what you think about the politics of their representatives and tell them you intend to spend your money elsewhere unless things change. Let these businesses know that unless they speak out against the bad politics coming from their reps you will start spending your hard earned dollars with their non Utah based competitors.
Yeah, back to the substance of this issue; a state squandering huge amounts of money to line the pockets of friends making recommendations to politicians that efforts to steal public Federal land will solve all there small-world problems.
"It's a small world after all, it's a small world after all, it's. ........" could easily be the fight song for the "flat earth" contingent of western legislatures, with Utah being asked to sign the first verse.
grizzly_
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2013
- Messages
- 1,210
BuzzH, the big disaster as far as I'm concerned is the fact that the photo in the Tribune story shows a big part of the contingent wearing their camo. Wearing camo to a political rally is the accepted way around here to show elected officials that you're a hunter. The politicians will look into the crowd and assume hunters support them.
Like has been said, it only takes a little education and hunters will fight against it, but nobody is showing them the other side of the coin and so far, they think this is good for hunting. That has to change.
The liberal environmentalist can't stave this off. Sportsmen can. But they must first learn about it first.
I really wish Utah politicians would just grow up. I mean how stupid does or state need to look before people start voting these cronies out of office. Thanks for posting it. I've been spreading the word through other hunting. Forums and Utah forums as well. The biggest issue here is educating people on the subject so do as much of it as you can. Continue contacting these idiots in office as well.
These guys suing the federal government are not dumb or crazy - they are using someone else's money to buy themselves a lottery ticket. As this country gets more and more urban, it seems like the only people who care about national forest and BLM land are those trying to steal it.
Write your elected representatives and let them know how you feel.
Write your elected representatives and let them know how you feel.
bmack
Member
Having lived in SLC for about 18 months now I agree with this statement. The overwhelming majority of outdoorsmen I meet support public lands and recreate in them regularly here in Utah. There is certainly a lack of education as very few of these folks realize who is at the root of trying to steal these lands from them...Republican politicians.
I think it goes beyond the church, and beyond Utah. So many people I meet are blindly following this political party thinking they are for sportsmen, when in fact their actions contradict this.
I'm a registered Republican, but good Lord. I can't support any of these folks that want this land grab.
Oldskool
New member
http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/politics/52745427-90/state-park-parks-county.html.csp
As a resident of Utah, this land grab issue is beyond my ability to comprehend. The nut jobs in our political leadership are simply trying to line their own pockets by gaining access to millions of acres of land through the idea of costly lawsuit. It boggles the mind the mind that our underfunded schools, crummy roads or a litany of other issues have no use of these funds. This thread reminded me of a hot topic issue from 2011 when the Utah State Parks had to increase fees's and reduce staff by 18% due budget shortfalls. Rep. Mike Noel who is heading the land grab suggested at this time to do away with all state parks and have them patrolled by county sheriffs. This nut-job has been trying to dispose of public lands long before now. We need to keep pressuring political leaders against this loss of critical state funds.
As a resident of Utah, this land grab issue is beyond my ability to comprehend. The nut jobs in our political leadership are simply trying to line their own pockets by gaining access to millions of acres of land through the idea of costly lawsuit. It boggles the mind the mind that our underfunded schools, crummy roads or a litany of other issues have no use of these funds. This thread reminded me of a hot topic issue from 2011 when the Utah State Parks had to increase fees's and reduce staff by 18% due budget shortfalls. Rep. Mike Noel who is heading the land grab suggested at this time to do away with all state parks and have them patrolled by county sheriffs. This nut-job has been trying to dispose of public lands long before now. We need to keep pressuring political leaders against this loss of critical state funds.
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