Trouble in the Bob
- Thread starter BigHornRam
- Start date
El Jason
Well-known member
It's pretty depressing that the Scapegoat/Rocky Mountain Front used to have an unlimited mountain goat season, and now there is but a tiny handful of permits available.
I agree with the canary in the coal mine perspective, alpine/montane mule deer populations are right there too.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2008/mountaingoats.htm
John Vore hinted at snowmobiles being the problem in the Sapphires in this 2008 article. Goats in the Bitterroots were doing ok at that time. Goats in the Bob were not. Down dramatically by 2000.
John Vore hinted at snowmobiles being the problem in the Sapphires in this 2008 article. Goats in the Bitterroots were doing ok at that time. Goats in the Bob were not. Down dramatically by 2000.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Disagree, I just help WDFW do a survey in the Goat Rocks of WA, which has orders of magnitude more hikers (PCT goes right down the spine), the population was significantly higher than they had estimated to doing very well.
OriginalOscar
Active member
Sarcasm.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific...ain-goats-with-science-guts-and-good-guesses/
Came across this Washington article when I googled the plight of mountain goats Neffa. Crazy stuff you guy's are ingesting!
Goats are susceptible to the same diseases that are having a negative impact on wild sheep populations. I do not know if that is what is causing the decline, but many of Montana's goat herds are carriers of the pathogens that result in pneumonia outbreaks.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
This is what I was thinking.
BuzzH
Well-known member
I think Brown has it right, Vore's theory, like him, is a big pile of dog chit. That guy should NOT be allowed to manage even field mice, let alone a big-game animal...unless you wanted to eliminate field mice, then he's your man.
I just got off the phone with a good friend of mine, Mr. Garner, from Missoula and had a good talk with him about goats in the Sapphires.
He drew tags in 1973, 1974, and 1984 in the sapphires. He told me that in 73 and 74 the FWP issued 5 tags each year and he saw 30-40 goats in each of those 2 years, and killed one in 1974 that was 14.5 years old. He said in 1984, which he thought was the last year they issued tags in the Sapphires (still issuing 5 tags), he saw 4 goats, 2 nannies, a kid, and one small billy. He told me he hunted at least 15 days in 1984, and "covered that M-fer from one end to the other"...and knowing how he still hikes, I can imagine that in 1984, he left very few stones unturned. So, in a span of 10 years, it seems not changing anything in harvest, finally took a toll...again, no proactive management by the FWP, even clear back in the 70's and 80's.
I remember the first several years I applied for a goat tag on the West side of the Bitterroot, there were 75 tags issued good from HWY 12 to the West fork. IIRC, they split the West Fork into a different unit. I also recall that a few years, prior to splitting the units by drainage, they decreased it to 50 for a year or maybe 2. I know several of the West side drainages were completely closed and hardly any tags were issued by the late 80's. My younger brother drew one of the two goat tags issued in Kootenai Creek in 1987 and he killed the only goat we saw, a 4.5 year old billy. I quit applying for a goat tag in the 'roots in 1990.
Again, its over-harvest, conifer encroachment, habitat changes, no management, and predation...all have taken their toll on goats.
T
tjones
Guest
75 permits on the westside was correct. This year I think there will be 2 permits. Paul, do you think that was the correct number to sustain a goat population?
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warmer
Well-known member
Where do I find these images? I would be very interested>
Irrelevant
Well-known member
http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific...ain-goats-with-science-guts-and-good-guesses/
Came across this Washington article when I googled the plight of mountain goats Neffa. Crazy stuff you guy's are ingesting!
https://goatalliance.org/goat-rocks-wilderness-project-recap/
Irrelevant
Well-known member
And if you could hunt them the OP is probably the best in the lower 48. https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2016/1185/ofr20161185.pdf
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Good stuff there Neffa!
OriginalOscar
Active member
Interesting. Utah has a couple of long term herds; Lone Peak and Timpanogos that are declining. Overall the goats in Utah are thriving.
It would be great if the wildlife research folks could develop inoculation against these diseases. Utah lost a new herd of bighorns on the Stansbury Mtns due to disease.
Hunting Wife
Well-known member
I haven't seen a lot of data regarding disease causing population level effects in mountain goats. Anyone have any references?
I know they do carry some of the pathogens that hammer bighorns, but from what I've read they don't seem to experience the same catastrophic mortality in most cases.
Has anyone read Dr. Bruce Smith's book "Life on the Rocks"? He's probably better versed in mountain goats than most, and he discusses some of the conservation challenges impacting mountain goats. Spoiler alert: alpine cold weather adapted ungulates do not fare well against climate change. Might be interesting to those concerned about mountain goat conservation.
I know they do carry some of the pathogens that hammer bighorns, but from what I've read they don't seem to experience the same catastrophic mortality in most cases.
Has anyone read Dr. Bruce Smith's book "Life on the Rocks"? He's probably better versed in mountain goats than most, and he discusses some of the conservation challenges impacting mountain goats. Spoiler alert: alpine cold weather adapted ungulates do not fare well against climate change. Might be interesting to those concerned about mountain goat conservation.
The theory of evolution clashes strongly with the religion of climate hysteria.
Anybody know how the goat population is doing in the Highwoods? It always fascinate me that they existed there.
Not sure if they're still around, but when I was a kid we used to fish from a boat on Holter. Goats all over the edge. Both places are low elevation and weird to see goats in.
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The primary case I can recall was in the East Humboldt and Ruby Mountains in NV. A quick search found the following documents. You might be able to find more with a more thorough search.
http://www.ndow.org/uploadedFiles/n...espiratory-Pathogens-Mtn-Goats-PERI-WOLFF.pdf
http://programme.exordo.com/wda2016/delegates/presentation/66/
Hunting Wife
Well-known member
Thanks for the links Oak. Will read up on it when I get some time.
Spoken like someone who understands the science of neither.
Not saying it's right or wrong....simply mentioned it for those who might be interested in reading a fairly well respected biologist's perspective. You know, in case anyone wanted to exercise their critical thinking skills.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
http://principia-scientific.org/norwegian-scientist-global-cooling-beginning-due-low-solar-activity/
Is this science good news for mountain goats?
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