List the native wildlife species you deem acceptable in the world.

[mevertsen]

And what is the benefit? How are chukars impacting native grouse?

This very well may be one instance where there is no direct impact, however, as I said above, I would rather effort be put into protecting native species, and not concerned so much about non native species.

 

[El Jason]

Unknown in this, as Nevada went away from stamps. So it’s just a license. Hard to say how many people buy the license just to hunt chukar.

Hard to estimate the impact then, no?

As a side note, another issue going on regarding non residents and hounds, but numbers are lacking on how many buy lion tags specifically to hunt with dogs.

Not germane to this.

Around guzzlers in general, yes.

Around the guzzlers around, here, they have specifically been built for chukar. Deer csnt use them, and they are not in places sage grouse would normally go. (No or limited forest habitat around here)

Are they harming anything? Who paid for them?

question comes to mule deer and pronghorn for example.

The NAPF was started by the effor of a lot of people on this forum because there was no "voice" for the pronghorn.

What relevance does this have?

Again for the sage grouse, hard to say? From the 1980s? Certainly. But where and what is the baseline for the population. This goes for all native species really.

Sage grouse is a habitat issue, correct? Do chukars compete with them?

I actually do wonder this. Harming natives directly? No. But, we have put a lot of guzzlers, big and small game in areas devoid of water. And in places inundated with horses. And then we've introduced (elk primary) animals into areas where they didn't historically spend a bunch of time. (Not non-native, but i frequent users of the land)

Its created quite a mess. Again, horses certainly a bigger issue for the habitat.

Sorry, we’re getting way off into a rabbit hole here. Do horses use guzzlers? I thought you said deer can’t?

Same question with pronghorn. Everything seems to be self sustainable, until it’s not. Then were scrambling. But again, where's the baseline?

I have no idea how this relates to our conversation.

In regards to the effort? Yup. We adjust season dates and limits for chukars and huns all the time.

Sage grouse do get adjusted, some areas added some eliminated.

Forest grouse just seems to be a formality for a season.

Do they need adjusting? If they don’t, who cares? It’s my experience forest grouse harvest is so minimal it doesn’t need adjusting. Maybe NV is different?

 

[El Jason]

This very well may be one instance where there is no direct impact, however, as I said above, I would rather effort be put into protecting native species, and not concerned so much about non native species.

What effort is going to chukar that is detracting from native grouse?

 

[mevertsen]

What effort is going to chukar that is detracting from native grouse?

Again. All the guzzlers that have been built, specifically for chukar. Not small game, not game birds, but specifically for chukar.

The counts NDOW does every year, an publishes for chukar.

But if anything is done to try to protect sage grouse breeding, its ridiculed by sporstmen as a waste of time. Lek grounds.

There are a lot of guzzlers in southern Nevada for quail, where the quail are native, but in the northern part of the state, its chukar.

Although I can't go back 100 or so years and figure out why they were Introduced rather than focus put on native birds at that time, that would be interesting to do.

 

[El Jason]

I am all for prioritizing native species, and I would not advocate they take a back seat compared to non natives.

The point I’m trying to make is it is about more nuanced than just saying the natives should be more important. Who’s saying they are not?

When you look at this from a fishery standpoint it’s a lot more black and white. In native fish can interbreed, compete for available spawning habitat, compete for food, etc.

Sensitive alpine habitat, mountain goats can cause damage and/or potentially compete with native species enough to do harm.

Itt easy to lose sight of the forest for the trees.

But if anything is done to try to protect sage grouse breeding, it’s ridiculed by sporstmen as a waste of time. Lek grounds.

That’s a stupid person issue and has nothing to do with chukar.

 

[El Jason]

Again. All the guzzlers that have been built, specifically for chukar. Not small game, not game birds, but specifically for chukar.

Answer how this is detracting from anything? Who is funding the guzzlers? Is this money that was taken from sage grouse management or was it private money donated?

If chukars weren’t around I don’t think you could necessarily say the same folks would pony up for native grouse.

 

[Elktrack]

Not so much that they impact native grouse.

But I am curious (would have to do a lot of digging in more books) what impact the chukar have had on other native species in general. A question I don't even have a theory for, but just came.to my mind.

Other than we put more effort into production of chukar than we do grouse.

We have tons of guzzlers in NV for chukar.

We have a forecast for chukars every year.

We see very little in the way of information gathering, beyond wing collection barrels, for grouse.

Although any improvement for deer would help sage grouse as well, so they go hand in hand.

We have a chukar foundation.

We have a chukar tournament.

Why are chukar more popular and get more attention than grouse and

There’s been a lot of effort put into the grouse. The grouse issue seems more complex. For example, I remember when there was a lot of effort to deal with egg predation from ravens and how the feds were involved with it due to ravens being raptors. Sagebrush habitat loss is another issue that isn’t quickly remedied. IMO the effort is there, the results are lagging compared to the effort and results with chukars.

Chukars get the limelight because they are a management success story.
Betcha money that every chukar hunter is interested in seeing the grouse do well too.

Interesting points you bring up even if I don’t agree with everything you’re saying.

 

[mevertsen]

Hard to estimate the impact then, no?

Unfortunately, from a monetary standpoint yes. Im sure data could be collected and analyzed, but thats beyond my level of abilities I think

Not germane to this.

It is as the argument has been made.about impact on a native species, by non residents, but there's no data to back it up, so same problem I suppose.

Are they harming anything? Who paid for them?

That was done before I was born. Haha.

What relevance does this have?

Native species, and "forgetting" about them because they seem to be doing well.

Sage grouse is a habitat issue, correct? Do chukars compete with them?

Compete directly? No. But if we were to actually eliminate cheat grass and foster and grow sage brush communities, grouse would respond, and chukar would be less productive.

Sorry, we’re getting way off into a rabbit hole here. Do horses use guzzlers? I thought you said deer can’t?

Horses dont use guzzlers. What im talking about is the horses actually impacting animals from accessing Big game guzzlers, because the horses are so aggressive. Vs small game guzzlers which have aprons very low to the ground.

I have no idea how this relates to our conversation.

again, native species. I didn't specify only chukar in my OP. I included chukar.

Do they need adjusting? If they don’t, who cares? It’s my experience forest grouse harvest is so minimal it doesn’t need adjusting. Maybe NV is different?

It may be. But how do we know? When is it too late?

 

[Wild Bill]

Seems like you really hate chukars. You should go and shoot some if you hate them. As many as you can (legally).

 

[mevertsen]

There’s been a lot of effort put into the grouse. The grouse issue seems more complex. For example, I remember when there was a lot of effort to deal with egg predation from ravens and how the feds were involved with it due to ravens being raptors. Sagebrush habitat loss is another issue that isn’t quickly remedied. IMO the effort is there, the results are lagging compared to the effort and results with chukars.

Chukars get the limelight because they are a management success story.
Betcha money that every chukar hunter is interested in seeing the grouse do well too.

Interesting points you bring up even if I don’t agree with everything you’re saying.

Forgot about the raven issue.

Speaking of those damn things.

Ive got 6 around my house. Smart buggers.

Its a challenge to keep all my eggs that get laid in a day.

Would be interesting to see what the interes in grouse would be. Agreed with them being the limelight for hunters. More accessible? More of them? I never do hear about people talking about chukar and grouse though. It seems to be either or. I have one friend who hunts forest grouse. She doesn't hunt chukar to my knowledge.

 

[mevertsen]

Seems like you really hate chukars. You should go and shoot some if you hate them. As many as you can (legally).

I do take as many as I can.

I dont hate them.

The idea for the OP came into my head because of the other arguments I've seen, predator issues we have, reading I've been doing about what was here before westward expansion, its sent my mind on all kinds of directions.

And its good to get people thinking.

Why are we here as hunters?

Why did our forefathers put these species here?

Now we have protections in society for various other species, which were native and have been reintroduced.

Lots of angles to look at.

 

[El Jason]

It seems that much of this is more of an emotional debate than factual.

I was more speaking to chukars as a specific example.

If native species are doing fine and are “forgotten”, is this a bad thing? Do you want/need season adjustment just for the sake of feeling better?

I am not arguing we should not eliminate cheat grass. Far from it. Many of my best chukar spots have very little cheat grass. Native bunch grasses will sustain them just fine.

Horses are a whole different rabbit hole that requires congressional action.

Arguments without data showing why something is a concern are not worth much. Effecting change without data is virtually impossible.

 

[mevertsen]

Another thought for the sake of the last part of the discussion.

So the acceptance seems to be forest grouse are okay left to their own devices. Whether they go up or down, whatever the habitat allows seems to be acceptable?

Why is there such an argument for making sure we have an "x" number of mule deer, rather than what the habitat may hold?

Not saying anyone here has made that argument. But it got me to thinking of, what native species are more important.

Forget the chukar.

Forest grouse

Mule deer.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Forget the chukar.

Forest grouse

Mule deer.

Not another $*)Q!#@$ mule deer thread. Please.

 

[El Jason]

Why is there such an argument for making sure we have an "x" number of mule deer, rather than what the habitat may hold?

My first question is who is making this argument? Is it the same idiot who thinks sage grouse management is a waste of time?

 

[mevertsen]

It seems that much of this is more of an emotional debate than factual.

I was more speaking to chukars as a specific example.

If native species are doing fine and are “forgotten”, is this a bad thing? Do you want/need season adjustment just for the sake of feeling better?

I am not arguing we should not eliminate cheat grass. Far from it. Many of my best chukar spots have very little cheat grass. Native bunch grasses will sustain them just fine.

Horses are a whole different rabbit hole that requires congressional action.

Arguments without data showing why something is a concern are not worth much. Effecting change without data is virtually impossible.

And unfortunately, if you read the OP, and then read where its gone, it has turned into an emotional debate.

But for me, its simple.

Native vs non-native.

I put the preference to native, even if that means a bit less opportunity for me.

 

[mevertsen]

My first question is who is making this argument? Is it the same idiot who thinks sage grouse management isn’t of time?

Listen to NDOW commission meetings. People are making arguments we need to do everything to save the mule deer. Conversations constantly about getting them back to the 80s.
Quota setting last two years, saving bucks to grow the deer herd.

Save the mule deer.

Save the mule deer.

Ndow is killing off the mule deer.

Kill the predators. They're eating the mule deer.

We have year round seasons, thermal becoming popular, but yet herds are decreasing.

But look at what Utah did for lions. And they are still complaining about too many predators.

So why is one native species more important than the other?

 

[El Jason]

And unfortunately, if you read the OP, and then read where its gone, it has turned into an emotional debate.

But for me, its simple.

Native vs non-native.

I put the preference to native, even if that means a bit less opportunity for me.

If this is simply a black and white argument of removing all nonnatives, that seems quite pointless and a debate I have little interest in.

 

[El Jason]

Listen to NDOW commission meetings. People are making arguments we need to do everything to save the mule deer. Conversations constantly about getting them back to the 80s.
Quota setting last two years, saving bucks to grow the deer herd.

Who are the people? Hunters? Biologists?

You don’t grow herds with bucks. You also won’t see deer numbers from the 80s.

 

[mevertsen]

Who are the people? Hunters? Biologists?

You don’t grow herds with bucks. You also won’t see deer numbers from the 80s.

I know this. Tell that to the deer hunters in Nevada.

Biologists are just living with what we have and trying to make things better where they can.

Deer hunters are making the crazy arguments.