Treaties With Tribal Nations Are the Law

[Hem]

Boy...some sane commentary by BigFin.
And then outrageous comments by others.
I mentioned this book before on a different thread.
Every one of the posters on this thread should read the book " Neither Wolf Nor Dog" by Ken Nerburn. It opened my eyes and it WILL open yours. The problem is about acceptance. Two drastically different cultures, European and Indigenous colliding. Close mindedness by white people is the essence. To state that portions of Indigenous religion is witchcraft is point blank evidence of an arrogant Christian society, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
If this nation would just live and let live...imagine how different and better we could be as a whole.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

The problem is about acceptance. Two drastically different cultures, European and Indigenous colliding.

One of the most interesting conversations I’ve ever had was with Gail Small, who was at one time on the tribal council for the Northern Cheyenne. It was a very long time ago, and for a twenty something guy with little knowledge of Indian culture, it was a real eye opening experience.

 

[okie archer]

Boy...some sane commentary by BigFin.
And then outrageous comments by others.
I mentioned this book before on a different thread.
Every one of the posters on this thread should read the book " Neither Wolf Nor Dog" by Ken Nerburn. It opened my eyes and it WILL open yours. The problem is about acceptance. Two drastically different cultures, European and Indigenous colliding. Close mindedness by white people is the essence. To state that portions of Indigenous religion is witchcraft is point blank evidence of an arrogant Christian society, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
If this nation would just live and let live...imagine how different and better we could be as a whole.

 

[okie archer]

Tell that to the full blood Native American Christians I know. Are full blood Native American Christians arrogant because they left their traditional religion for what they believe is truth?
My Cherokee card holding wife was 18 when we married almost 20 years ago. Our 4 biological children are Cherokee card holders, does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? We took in four bi-racial foster children last year, they are part black, white, and Cherokee. They will likely have permanent placement with us. Does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? I have spent countless unpaid hours in juvenile detention centers sharing the gospel with mostly people of color as a volunteer. Does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? I have spent time in prayer for the Lakota people and trying to think of ways to help them, does that make me arrogant, close minded, and racist? I know of full blood Christians ministers with last names like Green Feather, Polecat, Buzzard that believe in Christianity. Are they arrogant and close minded or is it only when a white person says it?

 

[azelkhntr]

Tell that to the full blood Native American Christians I know. Are full blood Native American Christians arrogant because they left their traditional religion for what they believe is truth?
My Cherokee card holding wife was 18 when we married almost 20 years ago. Our 4 biological children are Cherokee card holders, does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? We took in four bi-racial foster children last year, they are part black, white, and Cherokee. They will likely have permanent placement with us. Does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? I have spent countless unpaid hours in juvenile detention centers sharing the gospel with mostly people of color as a volunteer. Does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? I have spent time in prayer for the Lakota people and trying to think of ways to help them, does that make me arrogant, close minded, and racist? I know of full blood Christians ministers with last names like Green Feather, Polecat, Buzzard that believe in Christianity. Are they arrogant and close minded or is it only when a white person says it?

Better check your privilege pal. The SJW is on the war path. Sorry but I am not going to let white guilt and Christianity bashing pass; no, matter how popular. The #41 post is insulting and outrageous.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I don’t want to speak for @Hem but I think you are taking him out of context.

To state that portions of Indigenous religion is witchcraft is point blank evidence of an arrogant Christian society, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

If a Native American wants to convert to Christianity of their own volition, great. If they want to follow traditional beliefs of their heritage, great. I believe in the tenets of Christianity, but I’m not going to denounce someone else’s religion as witchcraft.

 

[Panda Bear]

Things are possibly different in the U.S. and we have are fair share of alcoholism, laziness, domestic abuse, and finger pointing here in Canada, but any Indian child (or adult ) that wants an education, can get one. If they want a better life they can have one. I liked what April posted once "nobody promised me a rose garden" Is it hard "er" being a female, indian, poor. Yes. But we have many opportunities available to us. I "choose" not to live my life as a victim and in my humble opinion so can all other Indians--at least in Canada

 

[Pucky Freak]

Soon after our European ancestors began killing natives, and persecuting the 10% left alive, a minority segment of our society has been wringing their hands, wanting to do something to improve the welfare of the natives. Unfortunately a lot of well-intentioned “help” only made things worse for most of them.

So today we as a society have the benefit of knowing a whole lot of things that are not helpful and don’t work.

The reservation model is crap. Some reservations are not too different than their surrounding communities, but then you have Pine Ridge, maybe the most godforsaken place on the planet which is overrun with criminal gang activity, very little employment, and worse humanitarian conditions than all or nearly all of the poorest countries in the world.

But to end the reservation model is not the US government’s decision to make. That has to be decided by the tribes and the natives; it’s their land.

One thing the US government can do is disincentivize living on reservations. Phase out all government entitlement program $, free or subsidized infrastructure, federal payments of any kind unless it’s written into a treaty, and the IHS. This might sound cruel, but so much of these programs and $ just fuel and perpetuate child abuse, alcohol and drug abuse, learned helplessness, dependency, etc.

I’d like to take this same $ and invest in job training, transitional housing, mental health, education, substance abuse treatment, childcare assistance, etc, all available off reservation.

 

[VikingsGuy]

But to end the reservation model is not the US government’s decision to make. That has to be decided by the tribes and the natives; it’s their land.

I agree morally with the above, just pointing out for the sake of clarity that in fact, legally Congress has the unilateral right to make changes including dissolution.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Better check your privilege pal. The SJW is on the war path. Sorry but I am not going to let white guilt and Christianity bashing pass; no, matter how popular. The #41 post is insulting and outrageous.

I call BS on this post. As a white Christian, Hem's post #41 did not invoke "white guilt" and was not a bashing of humble and self-aware Christians. There is much of our history that does not walk the teachings of our Saviour. Having that pointed out once in a while is not disrespect, it is a call to action - a reminder for us to renew our commitment to Christ's teachings of love, humility and openness to all his children.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Tell that to the full blood Native American Christians I know. Are full blood Native American Christians arrogant because they left their traditional religion for what they believe is truth?
My Cherokee card holding wife was 18 when we married almost 20 years ago. Our 4 biological children are Cherokee card holders, does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? We took in four bi-racial foster children last year, they are part black, white, and Cherokee. They will likely have permanent placement with us. Does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? I have spent countless unpaid hours in juvenile detention centers sharing the gospel with mostly people of color as a volunteer. Does that make me arrogant, racist, and close minded? I have spent time in prayer for the Lakota people and trying to think of ways to help them, does that make me arrogant, close minded, and racist? I know of full blood Christians ministers with last names like Green Feather, Polecat, Buzzard that believe in Christianity. Are they arrogant and close minded or is it only when a white person says it?

Your response is completely off the point. Hem's post did not address any of your charitable acts toward others, Indian or otherwise. He couldn't have, as he would have no way of knowing these details.

What Hem did have on hand was your comment that Native American belief systems are "truly a religion of no hope and no life and often times has witchcraft involved into it." As a fellow Christian, I find this comment ignorant and offensive. If you are as good and caring a man as you suggest, then I pray that Christ gives you the strength and insight to see how wrong and hurtful your comment was.

Go in peace and serve our Lord.

 

[Pucky Freak]

I agree morally with the above, just pointing out for the sake of clarity that in fact, legally Congress has the unilateral right to make changes including dissolution.

Poor choice of words on my part. Even if congress CAN dissolve treaties for reservation lands, I believe they never should.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Poor choice of words on my part. Even if congress CAN dissolve treaties for reservation lands, I believe they never should.

I gathered as much, just clarifying for other readers.

 

[okie archer]

As a Christian you would know then that Jesus himself said "I am the way, the truth, the LIFE."
Without Jesus Christ there is no life. To say otherwise is calling Jesus Christ a liar. So believing the words of Christ make me ignorant?
Sometimes the truth does hurt but that doesn't make it untrue. My words were not meant to be hurtful but truthful.

I don't sugar coat things when it comes to things of eternal value. Man's eternity is to precious for that.

When religious practices involve shapeshifting, skin walking, hanging bear feet above door post to put spell on someone, wrapping barbed wire around dead owls to keep the spirits away, calling up dead ancestors, I call it witchcraft. I don't know how to sugar coat it.

Interesting how i made two fairly long post about native American issues and my concern and it all seems to be ignored except one part of my post.

 

[VikingsGuy]

When religious practices involve shapeshifting, skin walking, hanging bear feet above door post to put spell on someone, wrapping barbed wire around dead owls to keep the spirits away, calling up dead ancestors, I call it witchcraft. I don't know how to sugar coat it.

And some critics call Christianity an "apocalyptic death cult". Perjorative labels do not help any of us gain understanding or embrace one another with love. The traditions of others can appear strange when viewed without understanding. Non-Christians are puzzled by a belief that Christ's blood appears in the wine - in fact, not metaphorically for many Christians. That we place great significance in ashes upon our foreheads, believe in a spiritually induced immaculate conception, a resurrection from the dead, and a supposedly monotheistic God that comes in 3 forms. Some believe in speaking in toungues, etc. All appear more than a little odd from the outside - maybe given the "oddities" of our belief system, we can grant others a bit of grace and respect.

But HT is not the place for theological debate so I will move along regarding this topic, but will pray that we all lead with love and not with hurtful words and unnecessarily pejorative labels.

 

[azelkhntr]

Bottom line is if you’re not a Christian washed in the Blood of Christ then you’re a pagan. We don’t apologize for the sins and evil deeds of our forebears. That’s on them. We should learn from them however.

 

[Panda Bear]

Deleted

my post was in response and agreeing with vikingguy--- but it was about religion---Big Fin has ask us to stay on topic is why I deleted it. My intent was to explain how different people from different parts of the world "Believe"

 

[Irrelevant]

I call BS on this post. As a white Christian, Hem's post #41 did not invoke "white guilt" and was not a bashing of humble and self-aware Christians. There is much of our history that does not walk the teachings of our Saviour. Having that pointed out once in a while is not disrespect, it is a call to action - a reminder for us to renew our commitment to Christ's teachings of love, humility and openness to all his children.

Dude, you gotta try to Ignore button, it is glorious. I didn't even see it as I was scrolling by

 

[shootbrownelk]

It is as bad as Randy described. At least on the reservations I have spent time on over last few years. It's very sad from what l have witnessed. It's not as simple as just "getting out of there". It is a vicious cycle. Generations of families seemed to be trapped.
1. No money on the reservation.
2. Very few jobs so depend on hand outs.
3. Steps one and two lead to depression.
4. Depression leads to alcoholism.
5. Alcoholism leads to more depression .
6. More depression leads to hopelessness.
7. Hopelessness leads to suicide.
8. I know this will likely ruffle some feathers but it is an honest and sincere feeling.
However while these dear people are holding on to their traditional religion because they feel it is one of the few things they have left it truly is a religion of no hope an no life and often times has witchcraft involved into it. It is a dead end.

One day a few years ago I spent a few days hunting and talking with a reservation resident. He told me that in a two year period they had 59 teenage suicides on his reservation alone! That is staggering to me.
I shared Christianity with him and he thanked me very much. Some want to do better but feel trapped. I have had positive socializing with some tribal members and have enjoyed it. I have become pretty good friends with one particular man. We talk on phone often. I have even entertained uprooting and moving to this one particular state and starting a church. This is a heartfelt subject to me. I wish I had more answers.

#5...alcoholism, now you can add Meth to the list.

 

[Big Fin]

Better check your privilege pal. The SJW is on the war path. Sorry but I am not going to let white guilt and Christianity bashing pass; no, matter how popular. The #41 post is insulting and outrageous.

Sorry, but I'm not about to let your absolutism "pass; no, matter how popular." There was nothing in that post #41 or this thread that is white guilt. You want to make it that as some sort of victimized viewpoint. You can't receive facts without spinning it to your view of the world with some sort of political pot-stirring slant to it.

Nobody is bashing Christianity. It is an observation by many, even those of us raised in Christian households and churches, that Christianity has an arrogance problem. You prove that in your next post that I quoted below.

To call other religions "witchcraft," as was stated in another post, because it doesn't meet the same parallels as the faith one practices is a rather arrogant manner by which to frame the faith of others. There is a reason Christianity and every other religion is called "faith." It is not proven and people follow the tenets of those teachings based on their own "faith" in such. To think that the faith of others is somehow wrong and our own faith is somehow correct surely reinforces the arrogance reputation that hangs over Christianity.

Bottom line is if you’re not a Christian washed in the Blood of Christ then you’re a pagan.........

You can now take your self-righteousness to other parts of the internet. Your continual division and narrow world view derails every thread you chime into.

When @Festus started his weekly posts on "Wednesday's Word," some folks got pissed that I allowed him to post his weekly Christian message of hope and kindness to our fellow man, a message I support. I told those critics to get over it. Some left the forum over it. Good riddance. Some wouldn't let it drop, so they were banned. I'm not going to let your arrogance and know-all proclamations go after others who follow a different faith anymore than I was willing to tolerate the complaints about Festus' Christian posts from those offended by his faith.

So, your days here are done. Long overdue, but done.