Thoughts?

[thomas89]

You would think the buffalo slaughter sites arond the park would have virtually no scavengers after eating 1100 gut piles
Seems like a perfect study area,,,

It’s actually pretty interesting but the bigger/slower bullets shot by muzzleloaders and those older model centerfire rifles from the old west don’t fragment near as much as todays modern ammunition.

You’d be hard pressed to find a round ball blow apart like an SST or ballistic tip.

*bullet construction has entered the chat*

 

[brockel]

It's hard for people to wrap their head around light bullets driven at warp speed. No denying that it works. mtmuley

You slinging 125s in the rum yet?

 

[mtmuley]

You slinging 125s in the rum yet?

Getting sick set me back some. Rifle is going to the smith at the end of the month. I think BAKPAKR shot some 124's. Like I said, I have a lofty goal for the 199. mtmuley

 

[buffybr]

It’s actually pretty interesting but the bigger/slower bullets shot by muzzleloaders and those older model centerfire rifles from the old west don’t fragment near as much as todays modern ammunition.

You’d be hard pressed to find a round ball blow apart like an SST or ballistic tip.

*bullet construction has entered the chat*

I don't think that 300stw was refering to the slaughter of buffalo back in the 1800s with muzzleloaders and the early slower moving centerfire rifles, but the current "slaughter" of 1100 buffalo around Yellowstone done with modern high velocity rifles.


As for the anti-lead bullet bandwagon, I'm not on it.

Since 2005, all of the animals that I've shot with my .375 RUM or my .300 Weatherby have been with Barnes or Hammer mono copper bullets, but...

For the past 50 years, I've eaten and fed my family with deer, elk, and many other game animals that I've killed with lead or lead core bullets. I've always butchered my own game animals, and I cut out and throw away any and all bloodshot meat.

I started casting my own lead bullets in 1970. My casting record shows that I've done 52 bullet casting sessions where each session I cast from 150 to over 1200 bullets in each session. In the mid '80s I started casting my own lead shot for Trap and Skeet shooting. In the peak years of my registered Trap and Shooting I was making 700 lbs of lead shot each year. I figure that I've loaded and shot over 300,000 shot shells in my life, and most were with the lead shot that I made.

All of the lead bullets and shot that I've made were made from wheel weights, range lead, and any other lead that I could scrounge that I first melted, cast into ingots, then later re-melted and cast into bullets or shot.

I'm now 77 years old, had a bout with cancer 2 years ago, and still have blood tests every 6 months. I've never had a high lead reading in any of my blood tests.

 

[Caseknife]

It was probably gutsy on Steve's part to participate in this video, but I applaud him. Doubt that it will hurt his company and will probably help it in the long run. Having driven through the Silver Valley and Trail, BC in the 60-70's, and seeing the barren hillsides is quite an eye opener. I have only shot mono's for the last 20 years or so on game animals. My scraps go in the field where I can see the resident raptors slick the pile clean in a few days. I think he did good participating in the video.

 

[longbow51]

I recall a comment from a biologist to Steve on the other group on why they didn't see increased lead during gopher/PD season. Whelp, because "they eat more live prey". I call BS on that; maybe they do eat more live prey, but they sure do feast on dog towns and gophers the day after we have had a good shoot.

So, I think the study was designed to prove a point, and any data which didn't support that point of view was ignored, which seems to be an increasing problem with "science".

Having said that, we now load Hammers in .204, .223, .257 STW, .300 H&H and WinMag and .375H&H. (As an aside, the first middle-of the road test load in the old .300 H&H with 180 gr HH produced touching 3 shot groups, and not just one. And that was just an 80s off the rack M 70, not something Kirby did his magic on.)

So, I wouldn't have done the video, knowing how it would be used, but certainly not a Bud Light moment.

I doubt there is any drop in bullet orders. In fact, I was thinking about ordering more, as I expect Biden will follow through on the threatened executive order, and if it includes not just refuges, but BLM and all federal land, there's going to be a major shortage of bullets, which, is of course, the desired outcome.

If they were worried about birds they would stop chopping them up by the millions with wind farms

 

[88man]

I understand. Steve is facing backlash from other hunting/shooting sites for his participation in the video. I just wanted the input from members here at HT. mtmuley

I enjoy our friendly banter about the Hammer vs Berger bullets. I am certain hammer bullets are dam good bullets. I just like the way my bergers shoot and kill. The raptor argument just doesn't sit well with me as we have more and more eagles every year around home.

 

[Doublecluck]

I wouldn’t worry if I was Steve, there was a belief among western hunters , true or not, that Barnes was rather cozy with and even pushing legislation for the CA lead ban as a marketing strategy. It was all over the net. They survived.

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Personally I like my high bc long skinnies for retained DRE, but I might acquire a few hammers in the future for my 06 and 7 for more up close and personal experiences.

 

[BuzzH]

I think anyone not at least starting load development with all copper is living in denial.

I have been developing loads and buying more monos when I can.

I also prefer bonded bullets as a half-assed excuse that they don't fragment as much. I'm also pretty careful and try to stay off heavy bones when killing big game as well.

I like the idea of all copper, but I'm still unconvinced lead bullets are a big issue to humans. No question they impact raptors.

 

[mtmuley]

Personally I like my high bc long skinnies for retained DRE, but I might acquire a few hammers in the future for my 06 and 7 for more up close and personal experiences.

Very few hunters take advantage of the "long skinnies". Cracks me up when I see guys agonize over BC then state they never shoot over X amount of yards. Every hunter has an idea of how they want a bullet to kill. I want one that will hold up at high velocity close range impacts. And perform at non HT ranges. BC? It's just a few more clicks. mtmuley

 

[jryoung]

I don't really care about anyone's politics or if they believe that lead is a problem or not. I wanted opinions on whether or not it was a bad look for Hammer to appear in that video. mtmuley

Absolutely not a bad look. Steve was simply just an " expert witness" for lack of a better term. He has an expertise in bullet making and bullet construction and that is what he provided.

That said, when it comes to many firearm issues one has to recognize this is a crowd that can be overly sensitive, irrational and highly reactionary.

Supporting hammer bullets checks a lot of boxes for me. It's an American made small business that delivers a high quality product.

 

[Doublecluck]

Very few hunters take advantage of the "long skinnies". Cracks me up when I see guys agonize over BC then state they never shoot over X amount of yards. Every hunter has an idea of how they want a bullet to kill. I want one that will hold up at high velocity close range impacts. And perform at non HT ranges. BC? It's just a few more clicks. mtmuley

Same, it’s hilarious. The more “clicks” don’t bother me I got plenty of unused space on the top/bottom end of of my optics. For my style of hunting there are certainly scenarios where that 1400 ft lb 1800 fps vel threshold could matter and having a bullet that will expand or anchor an animal 10 yards over a fence/properly boundary matter.

I don’t view it as one or the other, it’s like having a framing hammer and a drywall hammer, they both have a purpose and are interchangeable in most cases.

 

[mtmuley]

Absolutely not a bad look. Steve was simply just an " expert witness" for lack of a better term. He has an expertise in bullet making and bullet construction and that is what he provided.

That said, when it comes to many firearm issues one has to recognize this is a crowd that can be overly sensitive, irrational and highly reactionary.

Supporting hammer bullets checks a lot of boxes for me. It's an American made small business that delivers a high quality product.

Exactly. The odd thing is I don't believe that a spokesman for Barnes or Nosler would have been raked over the coals like Hammer. And that may be because of how personal Steve is with customers. A good thing in my opinion. mtmuley

 

[Nicoli7153]

Exactly. The odd thing is I don't believe that a spokesman for Barnes or Nosler would have been raked over the coals like Hammer. And that may be because of how personal Steve is with customers. A good thing in my opinion. mtmuley

Solid hard working folks in a private business, not a Vista subsidiary.

 

[brockel]

Very few hunters take advantage of the "long skinnies". Cracks me up when I see guys agonize over BC then state they never shoot over X amount of yards. Every hunter has an idea of how they want a bullet to kill. I want one that will hold up at high velocity close range impacts. And perform at non HT ranges. BC? It's just a few more clicks. mtmuley

Those verticle clicks are the easy ones to calculate. It’s the horizontal ones that will bite you in the ass on a dead coyote or a complete whiff at 400

 

[mtmuley]

Those verticle clicks are the easy ones to calculate. It’s the horizontal ones that will bite you in the ass on a dead coyote or a complete whiff at 400

Yep. Understood. And there are very few people that can read wind. Fewer yet that can do it consistently at extended yardage. Things are different with coyotes and elk. Limitations need to he held to. I know I have mine. mtmuley

 

[AlaskaHunter]

I've been hunting with no-lead for over a decade, rifle and shotgun no problems.

I do shoot shotgun at 100-200 clay targets each week and that is always lead shot as
it is substantially less expensive.

 

[brownbear932008]

So far what I have taken from these copper/lead debates. Copper is good lead is bad. They both shoot well and kill well. It's okay to feed birds and mammals lead but I'd rather not have my children or I consume it. Obviously it's bad for everyone's health involved, been a fact for many decades.

I feel birds are much more susceptible to lead poisoning than larger mammals as a whole. I'm perfectly fine with switching to copper bullets if it saves an eagle or any other bird of prey. Already shooting them in a few rounds.

 

[Point Creep]

I'll switch out my lead bullets right about the same time I drive an electric car.

 

[brownbear932008]

I don't really care about anyone's politics or if they believe that lead is a problem or not. I wanted opinions on whether or not it was a bad look for Hammer to appear in that video. mtmuley

Not in my opinion he obviously has a business model focused around copper bullets for all the right reasons.