Ten Bears
New member
Don't worry BUZZ, it was only a momentary lapse into sanity.
I have my standards you know.
This guy is a fuggin idiot
- Thread starter Delw
- Start date
cjcj
New member
don`t you guy`s know that only illegal`s get instate tuition eerrr i mean resident big game tag`s.
cjcj, If we listened to everything you say about illegals, you would have us all blaming them for the Plagues that ravaged Europe in the 15th Century.... Matter of fact, that may have been the case...???
A little more to the point... This has apparently become more of a concern than I had realized. I believe that rather than fight the ruling, the AZG&F should take some action to take some of the wind out of Taulman's er, ah, that complainant's sails.
Since the basis of the suit if "infringement of interstate commerce", then I suggest that they take certain actions to remove big game hunting from the realm of interstate commerce.
1. Make it mandatory for all out of state hunters to use an outfitter to hunt in Arizona.
2. Outlaw the sale of any part of an animal taken on a game tag in Arizona.
3. Make it mandatory that all outfitters licensed in Arizona be residents of Arizona.
4. Make it illegal to use any agency application service to apply for big game tags.
5. Implement a $25.00 nonrefundable application fee for out of state applications.
Those are just a few for starts. I'm sure that if everyone put their heads together, there would be several other ideas that would be applicable in this case.
Any opinions about these ideas??
A little more to the point... This has apparently become more of a concern than I had realized. I believe that rather than fight the ruling, the AZG&F should take some action to take some of the wind out of Taulman's er, ah, that complainant's sails.
Since the basis of the suit if "infringement of interstate commerce", then I suggest that they take certain actions to remove big game hunting from the realm of interstate commerce.
1. Make it mandatory for all out of state hunters to use an outfitter to hunt in Arizona.
2. Outlaw the sale of any part of an animal taken on a game tag in Arizona.
3. Make it mandatory that all outfitters licensed in Arizona be residents of Arizona.
4. Make it illegal to use any agency application service to apply for big game tags.
5. Implement a $25.00 nonrefundable application fee for out of state applications.
Those are just a few for starts. I'm sure that if everyone put their heads together, there would be several other ideas that would be applicable in this case.
Any opinions about these ideas??
BuzzH
Well-known member
Danr, a mandatory guide requirement for NR in Arizona? Why?
Thats about the dumbest idea I've ever heard, about as ridiculous as WY's guide law in the wilderness.
I've heard a number of people on this forum bitch and moan about "pricing" out the NR hunter, forcing them into hiring an outfitter is crazy.
Danr, you get the idiot award for today, as well as the stupid idea award.
I propose that if such an idiotic law were passed in Arizona (which I doubt would ever happen), all Western States (MT, ID, WY, UT, NM, etc.) should pass reciprocal laws that state: "Any resident of Arizona must be required to pay 4 times the NR cost for a license AND HIRE AN OUTFITTER" to hunt anything.
Sound fair Danr?
I'm all for limiting NR hunters, giving the lions share of the licenses to residents, etc. but forcing them to hire guides is a poor way to limit NR hunters.
Thats about the dumbest idea I've ever heard, about as ridiculous as WY's guide law in the wilderness.
I've heard a number of people on this forum bitch and moan about "pricing" out the NR hunter, forcing them into hiring an outfitter is crazy.
Danr, you get the idiot award for today, as well as the stupid idea award.
I propose that if such an idiotic law were passed in Arizona (which I doubt would ever happen), all Western States (MT, ID, WY, UT, NM, etc.) should pass reciprocal laws that state: "Any resident of Arizona must be required to pay 4 times the NR cost for a license AND HIRE AN OUTFITTER" to hunt anything.
Sound fair Danr?
I'm all for limiting NR hunters, giving the lions share of the licenses to residents, etc. but forcing them to hire guides is a poor way to limit NR hunters.
Buzz, Think about all of the suggestions instead of just the one. If everyone from out of state who hunts in Arizona needs an outfitter, and all outfitters licensed in Arizona must be Arizona residents, then George Taulman won't be licensed as an outfitter in Arizona... If it's illegal for agencies to apply for hunt tags as an agent of hunters, then USO will not be applying for 70,000 hunts in Arizona every year. I have no objections to anyone applying for a hunt in Arizona, but I do object to Taulman and his entire outfit and his way of doing business. If, as it appears, there will be no change in the ruling, then it would seem that other steps need to be taken to protect the hunting opportunities of the residents of Arizona.
You don't loose anything if the open Arizona up to everyone. I loose a lot.. Seems Wyoming has a similar law that you were defending as being OK about a year ago... So why is it crazy for Arziona?
You don't loose anything if the open Arizona up to everyone. I loose a lot.. Seems Wyoming has a similar law that you were defending as being OK about a year ago... So why is it crazy for Arziona?
I agree, a manditory outfitter hunt would be the downfall for everyone. By the way, it wasnt Danr that said it , it was Delw... but i still think its a bad thought. Delw, someday you may decide to get out of your own state to hunt and how would you like it if you had to hire a manditory guide?
I could give a shit about the higher price, but lets get real and talk about hunting tradition here.
I could give a shit about the higher price, but lets get real and talk about hunting tradition here.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Danr, I agree with you on Taulman, all the way.
However, you dont slap the face of the hunter who applies as a NR who wants to hunt on his/her own. Oh, and refresh my memory on being in favor of an outfitter requirement for NR anywhere. I dont like such laws, with the exception of AK. If you're referring to WY's wilderness guide law, you should remember myself and Pug Boykin going back and forth...I wasnt in favor of having the law, he was. I'm not into subsidizing the outfitting business.
The other ways you list are fine with me, but if AZ starts requiring a guide, I'll guarantee that there will be reciprocal laws passed in Western States requiring AZ residents to hire guides in their States...and rightfully so. I'd rather you come up and hunt on your own in WY, MT, etc. and let me do the same. I aint asking for a bigger cut of your tags, I aint asking for even a fair shake in the draw...just to be able to hunt on my own in AZ if I luck out and draw someday.
Arent you really just playing into Taulmans hand by passing legislation to require outfitters? All he has to do, under your proposals, is move to AZ, and then run his NM operations as a resident of AZ. He wins again, because every NR hunter will be looking him up for a hunt.
Its a tough issue for sure, but I'd caution AZ residents to think real hard about the fallout from legislation that requires NR to have a guide in your state.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-08-2003 21:44: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
However, you dont slap the face of the hunter who applies as a NR who wants to hunt on his/her own. Oh, and refresh my memory on being in favor of an outfitter requirement for NR anywhere. I dont like such laws, with the exception of AK. If you're referring to WY's wilderness guide law, you should remember myself and Pug Boykin going back and forth...I wasnt in favor of having the law, he was. I'm not into subsidizing the outfitting business.
The other ways you list are fine with me, but if AZ starts requiring a guide, I'll guarantee that there will be reciprocal laws passed in Western States requiring AZ residents to hire guides in their States...and rightfully so. I'd rather you come up and hunt on your own in WY, MT, etc. and let me do the same. I aint asking for a bigger cut of your tags, I aint asking for even a fair shake in the draw...just to be able to hunt on my own in AZ if I luck out and draw someday.
Arent you really just playing into Taulmans hand by passing legislation to require outfitters? All he has to do, under your proposals, is move to AZ, and then run his NM operations as a resident of AZ. He wins again, because every NR hunter will be looking him up for a hunt.
Its a tough issue for sure, but I'd caution AZ residents to think real hard about the fallout from legislation that requires NR to have a guide in your state.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-08-2003 21:44: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
Delw
Member
I was the one who first said make all non res use a guide....
I dont want that to happen, but from what I heard Thats the only choice azG&F would have if this suit go through that taulmans sueing .. Everything what I hear is hearsay right now. So I dont know whats going on... game and fish has a fisheries meeting next month and I will ask about it.
That would be the last things I would want to see but if it means me getting a tag and not a non res than so be it.... I sure dont want to wait 40 years for a tag, but if the suit goes through I might have to wait 50...
Schmalts I have hunted out of state, Even in texas where you have to pay someone to hunt(thats almost like a requiered guide)
I dont mind paying the extra money to hunt that non res currently pay in other states
Delw
I dont want that to happen, but from what I heard Thats the only choice azG&F would have if this suit go through that taulmans sueing .. Everything what I hear is hearsay right now. So I dont know whats going on... game and fish has a fisheries meeting next month and I will ask about it.
That would be the last things I would want to see but if it means me getting a tag and not a non res than so be it.... I sure dont want to wait 40 years for a tag, but if the suit goes through I might have to wait 50...
Schmalts I have hunted out of state, Even in texas where you have to pay someone to hunt(thats almost like a requiered guide)
I dont mind paying the extra money to hunt that non res currently pay in other states
Delw
Buzz, I am sorry about the Wyoming guide issue, I remembered you being in favor of it. My mistake... As to the Arizona issues, it's a matter of balance. You take everything you have to gain and everything you have to loose, then do what you have to do to make them balance. Taulman is not about to move to Arizona and become a resident. Given everything that's transpired, I think he would have an extremely difficult time getting licensed as an outfitter in Arizona. Besides, he wants to move to Hollywood and make videos... with the Real Tree folks. That's another thing that we as hunters can do. Boycott Real Tree and write them and tell them so. As long as they are associated with USO, we buy Mossy Oak.. or Predator or anything but Real Tree.
I will support almost any move that keeps Taulman and his ken out of Arizona. I've seen the man's camps and I've seen the areas after they've left. I don't like USO and I don't like George Taulman. I am sorry if what we need to do in Arizona alienates residents of other states, but I see little room for compromise given the comlexion of the courts at this point.
...and one more thing,, Del I agree with you.. The guy is a fuggin idiot...and a whiner!!!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-09-2003 07:22: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>
I will support almost any move that keeps Taulman and his ken out of Arizona. I've seen the man's camps and I've seen the areas after they've left. I don't like USO and I don't like George Taulman. I am sorry if what we need to do in Arizona alienates residents of other states, but I see little room for compromise given the comlexion of the courts at this point.
...and one more thing,, Del I agree with you.. The guy is a fuggin idiot...and a whiner!!!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-09-2003 07:22: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>
Ten Bears
New member
What does USO stand for?
cjcj
New member
i have to stick with dan and delw, we in az have more to loose,we have to many paople and not enough tag`s, the harder for non-res to get a tag the better! yes i`m selfish but under some circumstances you have to be.
AZ402
Well-known member
1-Pointer, I think your numbers on non-residents contributions may be a little flawed. I'll give you a quick example. In Arizona if a hunt has 100 elk tags, 10 go to non-res. those 10 non-res tags will generate $ 4845.00 with tag and license. 90 tags will be paid for by residents, which will come to $ 8730.00. Thats $ 3885.00 more dollars put up by residents, than non-residents. Just wondering how you got your numbers?
I'm guessing these numbers would hold pretty much the same in most western states. Seems to me the residents are giving a lot more to the state than the non-residents.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-09-2003 15:34: Message edited by: AZ402 ]</font>
I'm guessing these numbers would hold pretty much the same in most western states. Seems to me the residents are giving a lot more to the state than the non-residents.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-09-2003 15:34: Message edited by: AZ402 ]</font>
BuzzH
Well-known member
AZ402, I think what you stated is true in AZ, but WY, MT, and CO arent the same. When I left MT a deer/elk/fishing/upland bird/conservation resident license was 64 bucks. I've paid 678 for the same license as a NR of MT. I aint bitchin or whinin but thats 10 times what a resident pays. The outfitter sponsored combo license in MT is I believe going for 1100. I think theres 17,000 NR combo licenses sold in MT. My math sucks, but thats a whole herd of money, I believe NR fund a majority of the F&G in MT, CO, WY, and probably Idaho as well. Wyoming NR pay between 4-6 hundred for an elk tag while Residents pay 35.
What needs to happen is to raise Resident fees in those states and freeze the NR fees.
Danr, I hear you loud and clear and understand the problem with USO. I just dont think AZ should hammer the do-it-yourself guys. Maybe let each licensed resident "guide" (for no fee) up to 5 NR's a year. That way, you or delw could have your buddies down for a hunt without having them hire a guide. Wyoming has a similar deal.
What needs to happen is to raise Resident fees in those states and freeze the NR fees.
Danr, I hear you loud and clear and understand the problem with USO. I just dont think AZ should hammer the do-it-yourself guys. Maybe let each licensed resident "guide" (for no fee) up to 5 NR's a year. That way, you or delw could have your buddies down for a hunt without having them hire a guide. Wyoming has a similar deal.
AZ402
Well-known member
BUZZ, All I had to go on was Arizona. I figured a couple states would very a little. We just had all our tag fee's and license fee's raised a few years ago for resident and non-resident. Arizona still has some of, if not the cheapest tag prices for Non-residents. A resident elk tag here is 76.50. That seems like one of the highest prices for a resident elk tag? I may be wrong, kind of like my math on the last post. Residents would actually generate $ 9180.00 instead of $ 8730.00 for 90 elk tags. $ 4335.00 would be the actual difference in resident vs. non-res revenue for a unit with 100 elk tags............
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-09-2003 20:47: Message edited by: AZ402 ]</font>
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-09-2003 20:47: Message edited by: AZ402 ]</font>
Delw
Member
hey buzz thats not a bad idea you had about the five year buddy thing....
If we had herds like wy,co, montana and even idaho I wouldnt mind so much about non res having a better chance.... but damn If I got to wait 21 fuggin years for a damn elk tag (that includes putting in for archery,muzzy and even cows ) no offence but f-k all you non res
I want mine first and I would expect the same treatment in other states that have low elk numbers....
Delw
If we had herds like wy,co, montana and even idaho I wouldnt mind so much about non res having a better chance.... but damn If I got to wait 21 fuggin years for a damn elk tag (that includes putting in for archery,muzzy and even cows ) no offence but f-k all you non res
Delw
I'm sorry buzz, I thought I had posted that in the original. "Nonresidents hunt with a resident or a paid outfitter". Surely if you have a brother or a friend who is lucky enough to get drawn, they should be allowed to hunt with a "Non-paid resident sponsor".
Ten Bears
New member
Thanks for clearing that up.
ID residents can buy a second elk tag, it is from the surplus NR elk tags at the NR price ($338(?)) so it's hard to say how any are going to NR's or residents.
ID residents can buy a second elk tag, it is from the surplus NR elk tags at the NR price ($338(?)) so it's hard to say how any are going to NR's or residents.
Bullhound
New member
Can't help it. I still feel that if ya want to hunt in my back yard, pay the price and take your chances, or take a job here and enjoy the benefit. Either way, quit bitchin about it.
Was that polite enough.
Was that polite enough.
