The housing shortage and public lands

[Sawtooth]

* - I worded this statement this way rather then "Denver's issues" because contrary to what some have stated up the thread, the problems Denver has are not all Denver's doing. The dude living in my alley's life didn't fall apart because our elected officials don't belong to the party you prefer. His life fell apart likely elsewhere (maybe your town), and circumstances brought him to here, and we have to deal with it. Homelessness is a societal problem, but big cities often get stuck footing the bill.

A good friend use to be in law enforcement in a small Idaho town. Any time they had a had an issue with a homeless individual they would give him/her a bus ticket to Boise because they didn't have the money or facilities to deal with the problem.

 

[Otto Matic]

I think Otto is wllm's long lost redneck brother. Ontario is 100% original material.

Ever find you one of those 0% loans or figure out how to read Nigerian?
...or figure out how to Google?

 

[LuketheDog]

How does Europe do it? Or Japan?

Well, do I have to answer it in forum sound-byte opinion length? It's not all that different than here, they just make owning vehicles cost prohibitive, if people could drive more they would. Plus they grew up in wonderful feudal societies where the peons were crammed into the cities like sardines because there was nowhere else to go, and there still isn't in many of those countries. We in 'Merica have had the blessing of plenty of land to build on and living just about anywhere that makes us happy, even downtown Denver

 

[Irrelevant]

So the population of the world in terms of humans is obviously far larger than it was back when Moses was herding 'em up 2x2, but Antiquity might disagree that large cities aren't in our dna.

List of largest cities throughout history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So the oldest one on that list was 9k years ago, which represents exactly 3% of the human experience.

No two humans are the same, and I can only experience me. So maybe cities are quite natural for some. They are not for me, and I would, and will continue, to make great sacrifices to never have to live in one again.

 

[BigHornRam]

My eldest worked a job in downtown Denver, Colorado!
Got a "dad, I've had it!" call one morning.
Stepped out the front door of a downtown office building to be greeted by a naked man wearing a backpack and peeing in the planters in front of the building. A daily occurrence when working midnights.

He was probably hired by the city to fertilize the shrubbery.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Well, do I have to answer it in forum sound-byte opinion length? It's not all that different than here, they just make owning vehicles cost prohibitive, if people could drive more they would. Plus they grew up in wonderful feudal societies where the peons were crammed into the cities like sardines because there was nowhere else to go, and there still isn't in many of those countries. We in 'Merica have had the blessing of plenty of land to build on and living just about anywhere that makes us happy, even downtown Denver

I was gonna say trains, but I think yours is pretty accurate.

 

[CycleFishHunt]

Apologies, there are a few areas within walking distance of downtown that aren't bad, I have friends who live there...but I'm happier having deer and bears snooping around my house than some meth head sleeping it off in the bushes

No apologies needed. There was no offense taken. You’re certainly entitled to you opinions. I won’t pretend Denver is perfect.

We’re hopefully all lucky enough choose the lives we want to live. After weighing all our needs, wants and the trade-offs involved, Denver works out really well for me and my family.

I get the aversion to cities. As has been alluded to elsewhere on this thread the US, generally speaking, does not have very healthy cities.

However, and I’m not saying this is you, but suspect I see a bit of it on this thread, that with all the us
vs them business in the zeitgeist these days, I think a lot of people assume that people in them-land clearly have an inferior way of living, and just trash it out of hand.

In my heart, I know I’d probably love living out in the country, but circumstances make this the best choice at present.

And we’re in total agreement. I’ll take critters to junkies any day!

 

[BigHornRam]

A good friend use to be in law enforcement in a small Idaho town. Any time they had a had an issue with a homeless individual they would give him/her a bus ticket to Boise because they didn't have the money or facilities to deal with the problem.

I've heard Bozeman gives them bus tickets to Missoula.

 

[TOGIE]

So the population of the world in terms of humans is obviously far larger than it was back when Moses was herding 'em up 2x2, but Antiquity might disagree that large cities aren't in our dna.

List of largest cities throughout history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

well yes, we are indeed a social animals. the predisposition there is to gather and live in groups for safety and efficiency.

but i agree with neffa.

you have to think instead about how the human brain evolved. it's been evolving over what? 6 million years? it evolved in nomadic tribes, hunting and gathering. that is the overwhelming majority, dare i say 99% of our existence and evolution as humans is that kind of setting. it did not evolve surrounded by hundreds of thousands or millions of other humans, in close quarters, surrounded by loud noises, pollution, 24 hour lights, and uber eats for our chipotle.

it may be an arguable point, but on the scale of our evolutionary history, i would argue cities are a brand new experiment our human brains are still grappling with. even the oldest known city of more than even 1000 people some 10,000 years ago or whatever - entirely new on the scale of evolutionary history not even remotely comparable to nomadic camps.

this coming from a christian suburban white boy. #heretic

 

[Ben Lamb]

So the oldest one on that list was 9k years ago, which represents exactly 3% of the human experience.

No two humans are the same, and I can only experience me. So maybe cities are quite natural for some. They are not for me, and I would, and will continue, to make great sacrifices to never have to live in one again.

I look forward to you returning to only fire for light, and no indoor plumbing.

And kill that internet, captain caveman.

 

[DouglasR]

I look forward to you returning to only fire for light, and no indoor plumbing.

And kill that internet, captain caveman.

Dental hygiene is the one that always gets me.

 

[Ben Lamb]

well yes, we are indeed a social animals. the predisposition there is to gather and live in groups for safety and efficiency.

but i agree with neffa.

you have to think instead about how the human brain evolved. it's been evolving over what? 6 million years? it evolved in nomadic tribes, hunting and gathering. that is the overwhelming majority, dare i say 99% of our existence and evolution as humans is that kind of setting. it did not evolve surrounded by hundreds of thousands or millions of other humans, in close quarters, surrounded by loud noises, pollution, 24 hour lights, and uber eats for our chipotle.

it may be an arguable point, but on the scale of our evolutionary history, i would argue cities are a brand new experiment our human brains are still grappling with. even the oldest known city of more than even 1000 people some 10,000 years ago or whatever - entirely new on the scale of evolutionary history not even remotely comparable to nomadic camps.

this coming from a christian suburban white boy. #heretic

Right, so because of evolution & those shared human experiences, we've become mixed use users with the vast majority evolving to be city dwellers.

So evolutionarily, we're city slickers. Even Needs.

 

[BigHornRam]

Leave it to @Ben Lamb (HT's #2 walking cultural repository) to link the Ganges and Euphrates to Ketchum Idaho haha.

Welcome to Ketchum, Idaho. The fertile crescent of North America.

 

[LuketheDog]

No apologies needed. There was no offense taken. You’re certainly entitled to you opinions. I won’t pretend Denver is perfect.

We’re hopefully all lucky enough choose the lives we want to live. After weighing all our needs, wants and the trade-offs involved, Denver works out really well for me and my family.

I get the aversion to cities. As has been alluded to elsewhere on this thread the US, generally speaking, does not have very healthy cities.

However, and I’m not saying this is you, but suspect I see a bit of it on this thread, that with all the us
vs them business in the zeitgeist these days, I think a lot of people assume that people in them-land clearly have an inferior way of living, and just trash it out of hand.

In my heart, I know I’d probably love living out in the country, but circumstances make this the best choice at present.

And we’re in total agreement. I’ll take critters to junkies any day!

I don't look at it as us-vs-them unless I find myself in a position where the masses in the city apply things to me that are designed to work for them. I really don't care where anybody lives as long as they take care of it and are proud of it.

We can all be friends, come on by for a beer sometime, we can shoot bows and guns in my yard...

 

[TOGIE]

Right, so because of evolution & those shared human experiences, we've become mixed use users with the vast majority evolving to be city dwellers.

So evolutionarily, we're city slickers. Even Needs.

here are some counter thoughts:

evolutionarily, our brains seek out high calorie foods for survival, so does that make diets high in sugar and refined carbohydrates the natural healthy choice?

we naturally - evolutionarily - seek to rest and not unnecessarily expend calories for our very survival. only burning calories to obtain more calories or to escape danger or make more humans. does that make a totally sedentary lifestyle the natural, evolutionarily right and healthy way to live? don't need to burn the cals then don't burn em says the brain.

modern life has cause humans to live in such a way that they fall into their natural and evolutionarily consistent tendencies to such extremes that those tendencies have turned against us

i think we've taken the tendency to gather in groups to such extremes in modern life that it's unhealthy and unnatural. edit: albeit necessary

 

[DouglasR]

Right, so because of evolution & those shared human experiences, we've become mixed use users with the vast majority evolving to be city dwellers.

So evolutionarily, we're city slickers. Even Needs.

Evolved or were forced to be city dwellers?
I smell oppression.

 

[BigHornRam]

Evolved or were forced to be city dwellers?
I smell oppression.

In high school history class we were covering the mountain man era, and the teacher asked if anyone in the class would have wanted to live like that. Two of us raised our hand. Guess I didn't evolve.

 

[LuketheDog]

I was gonna say trains, but I think yours is pretty accurate.

I traveled by train around England and France in college and it was great, their high speed trains are incredible, it's like flying. That's something that would work incredibly well (better than in Europe even, imo) in our vast expanses here, but the current rail project disaster in California has proven that our state and federal governments can't pull their heads out far enough to get it done. Can you imagine if there was a high-speed train loop from Denver to skiing???

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

All this cavalier use of "evolution" is making my biology training anxious. My evolution professor would be cracking skulls by now.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Noah was the first boat captain…. Although Moses did surf the Nile when he was a little shaver.