The "CWD is a HOAX" movement is building

[Nick87]

At what point do you blame people for not trusting game agencies or not believing in the science. We've been trying our best to scorch the earth here of our deer heard for over 15 years now and cwd is supposedly spreading. I'm not saying cwd isn't real or it isn't the best approach I'm just saying the average license holder isn't going to put much faith into whats bring practiced.

 

[huntnpack]

At what point do you blame people for not trusting game agencies or not believing in the science. We've been trying our best to scorch the earth here of our deer heard for over 15 years now and cwd is supposedly spreading. I'm not saying cwd isn't real or it isn't the best approach I'm just saying the average license holder isn't going to put much faith into whats bring practiced.

If they have an expectation that it won't spread after all of these measeures, they don't understand the objectives/science.

 

[Nick87]

If they have an expectation that it won't spread after all of these measeures, they don't understand the objectives/science.

I never said they did..

 

[huntnpack]

At what point do you blame people for not trusting game agencies or not believing in the science. We've been trying our best to scorch the earth here of our deer herd for over 15 years now and cwd is supposedly spreading. I'm not saying cwd isn't real or it isn't the best approach I'm just saying the average license holder isn't going to put much faith into whats bring practiced.

Fixed

I guess I'm not completely following.

To get buy in from the public you build their trust in managers and/or increase their scientific literacy to understand the problems/solutions. What's the alternative?

 

[VikingsGuy]

No opinion on CWD, but the MN DNR hasn't handled it very well IMO. They found a deer on a deer farm that caused them to put the whole 604 unit on blast. It was unlimited does for a few years here. There has to be a better way than just trying to kill all the does in any given unit. Also, why do they open up does to over harvest and not bucks? They can both contract it.

MN DNR handles many many things poorly, so not surprised here. As for why depopulate? As @Hunting Wife and others have pointed out, this is a disease driven by population density and proximity. The theory is with a much sparser population in an area that just test positive they may slow or even hault progression into other parts of the state. Will it work? Who knows, but it is about the only tool we have right now. I saw an analogous situation at my cabin - for whatever historical reason the spruce/fir on our 70 acres is scattered around somewhat randomly with a lot of poplar & maple breaking things up. Meanwhile, for equally unknown reasons, our neighbors have big clusters of spruce/fir. When the spruce budworm swept through the county the last few years our neighbor's trees got hammered and we only lost a few - when I asked our forester why, he said the insects needed a certain tree density to really spread. I am not saying it is identical between CDW and spruce trees (especially give deer move more than trees), but the population density is a well-understood driver of disease progression across a population so it is a reasonable try.

As for why does? Same reason we can kill 90% of SDs roosters every year and have robust pheasant populations. These animals are not monogamous so the population control lever is females, not males.

 

[Nick87]

Fixed

I guess I'm not completely following.

To get buy in from the public you build their trust in managers and/or increase their scientific literacy to understand the problems/solutions. What's the alternative?

Forget it.

 

[rjthehunter]

MN DNR handles many many things poorly, so not surprised here. As for why depopulate? As @Hunting Wife and others have pointed out, this is a disease driven by population density and proximity. The theory is with a much sparser population in an area that just test positive they may slow or even hault progression into other parts of the state. Will it work? Who knows, but it is about the only tool we have right now. I saw an analogous situation at my cabin - for whatever historical reason the spruce/fir on our 70 acres is scattered around somewhat randomly with a lot of poplar & maple breaking things up. Meanwhile, for equally unknown reasons, our neighbors have big clusters of spruce/fir. When the spruce budworm swept through the county the last few years our neighbor's trees got hammered and we only lost a few - when I asked our forester why, he said the insects needed a certain tree density to really spread. I am not saying it is identical between CDW and spruce trees (especially give deer move more than trees), but the population density is a well-understood driver of disease progression across a population so it is a reasonable try.

As for why does? Same reason we can kill 90% of SDs roosters every year and have robust pheasant populations. These animals are not monogamous so the population control lever is females, not males.

Being as they found 1 deer on a deer farm that had cwd, I was surprised that they decided it was worth opening fire on an entire unit because of it.

I don't like the DNR. The conservation officers have been pretty good, but the DNR itself is tough to support.

 

[VikingsGuy]

At what point do you blame people for not trusting game agencies or not believing in the science. We've been trying our best to scorch the earth here of our deer heard for over 15 years now and cwd is supposedly spreading. I'm not saying cwd isn't real or it isn't the best approach I'm just saying the average license holder isn't going to put much faith into whats bring practiced.

I hear you. One challenge we have now with the endless flow of information is that science is by its very definition a slow process of trial and error and we want correct answers immediately. We were better off when it took many many years for scientific near certainties (not sure "truth" is a good word when talking about science) to bubble up into common understanding while leaving hundreds of lesser results in the dustbins of history. Instead, 1 data point leads to a million twitter followers claiming a solution for a few weeks until a different data point send a different million twitter follower to claim their new solution, rinse and repeat weekly and soon people, "no longer trust science".

What we have is an impatient society that demands instant gratification for every wish/demand/preference/need, yet has very little understanding of how science works. Add to this a limitless flood of information and influencers, and a media that just needs viewers at any cost and this is what we get -- at least half of the right and a third of the left denying many simple scientific understandings driven by their clan values.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Being as they found 1 deer on a deer farm that had cwd, I was surprised that they decided it was worth opening fire on an entire unit because of it.

I don't like the DNR. The conservation officers have been pretty good, but the DNR itself is tough to support.

Only one you see and not knowing where it started or where it had gone it is a reasonable concern.

Ask yourself, is this really about wildlife science or about hunting opportunity? If this was a county-wide raccoon eradication project how much would you care?

 

[Boondocks]

Just look at the transgender movement and you can understand why people no longer trust what is presented as "science". "Science" is often agenda driven, meaning that "science" is a marketing word.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Oh FFS.

 

[rjthehunter]

Only one you see and not knowing where it started or where it had gone is a reasonable concern.

Ask yourself, is this really about wildlife science or about hunting opportunity? If this was a county-wide raccoon eradication project how much would you care?

I'm a trapper so I would care, but most people wouldn't. I was under the impression most CWD cases originated at deer farms and seemingly spread from there.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I'm a trapper so I would care, but most people wouldn't. I was under the impression most CWD cases originated at deer farms and seemingly spread from there.

I almost used squirrel as the example but since @BrentD fed us some tasty squirrel I tried to pick something that wouldn't offend him

 

[rjthehunter]

I almost used squirrel as the example but since @BrentD fed us some tasty squirrel I tried to pick something that wouldn't offend him

Squirrels are under rated around here! I've also heard guys who want coons to eat. They're supposed to be really good eating. But I've never tried.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Just look at the transgender movement and you can understand why people no longer trust what is presented as "science". "Science" is often agenda driven, meaning that "science" is a marketing word.

Against my better judgment, I will respond.

I am specifically setting aside the issue as it relates to minors, as I have some concerns there.

As this discussion relates to adults - all words are arbitrary social choices -- why am I typing on a keyboard and not an alphabet selector? Similarly, pronouns and sex/gender-related labels are all arbitrary social choices. As are expected clothing choices (see, kilts), hairstyles, use of makeup, piercings, etc. Humans have also extended expectations to the roles individuals play in society based on a number of criteria. If we go back 150 years I am not sure 95% of us have any affinity for the social expectations for blacks, women, Jewish people (progroms), and children (factory labor?). We changed. It probably took longer than it needed to, but we made changes. But human social change does not have a beginning or an end, it is an ever-ongoing process. So, if society wants to revisit its social constructs related to use of certain words, certain "dress codes", and certain expected "roles" for its individuals, this is not science and it is not news.

But some changes to common convention are educated by science. Sometimes good (surgeons washing their hands, reduced tobacco usage, etc) and sometimes bad (eugenics). In this case, as society considers a change to gender framework - while a social and not scientific task - science may offer some insight. So, science may be able to shed some light on how the human brain works as it relates to gender and sexuality outside of the prior arbitrary social preferences. I have not dug into the science so take no position on the "science", but given the general state of neuroscience, I would say we are very early in our understanding. But it is not marketing, real science is being done and I have no doubt in 40 or 50 years we will have a much better understanding of how our brain shapes our self image.

So, science should educate how certain we are about continuing our past social choices, but it does not actually answer yes or no.

On difficult topics, I look to my three foundational values. I look through a lens of individual liberty - and I ask myself, what choice maximizes personal liberty? The adult trans answer is clear - it's none of my business. Another foundational value is my faith - and I ask myself what am I taught - in my view I am given hundreds of directions to see all in the image of god and to love all of god's children as I am loved and a few small passing references to gender/sexuality, for me the choice is clear. And I look to the value of nuclear family integrity - not really relevant to the adult trans discussion but is the basis of my reluctance in how early in this discussion we throw kids and parents into the blender given our general fuzzy understanding of the issue - and this goes both ways - parents on either side of the issue have to be given some latitude until broader consensus is reached.

Sorry to all if this results in a lock, but I do think those of us in the middle need to wade into the culture wars from time to time if we ever want the dialog to become productive.

 

[Jwill]

Early this fall a local orchard advertised "deer apples" for sale by the bin. We've recently had a couple CWD cases pop up locally, so I suggested they not market these being how it's illegal to feed/bait deer with new CWD restrictions in place and you would have thought I insulted their mother... Ok guys, god forbid you do the right thing and try to protect our deer herd across the region... I suspect if I had pushed the issue plenty deniers would have surfaced.

 

[mtmiller]

See what this will bring.

Wildlife health staff with Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks recently detected chronic wasting disease in a cow elk that was harvested by a hunter in hunting district (HD) 622.

This marks the first CWD detection in an elk in northeast Montana. This is the second CWD-positive animal detected in HD 622, the first being a mule deer buck that was harvested by a hunter in 2020. FWP has conducted rotating surveillance for CWD throughout the state for several years, and HD 622 is within this year’s priority surveillance area.

CWD is a contagious neurological disease that infects deer, elk, and moose. It is always fatal, and there is no known cure. It was first detected in Montana’s wild herds in 2017. The disease is known to exist in other parts of north-central and northeast Montana, especially north of Highway 2, as well as in other areas of the state.

Hunters play a significant role in CWD management by providing test samples from harvested animals. FWP has provided resources to help hunters collect and submit samples for testing on their own. In addition, FWP offers several locations around the state where FWP staff will take samples for hunters. These resources and others can be found at fwp.mt.gov/cwd.

CWD is not known to infect humans. However, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommends that people not eat meat from infected animals and have their harvested animals tested before eating them if they were taken from an area where CWD is known to exist.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

FFS. We are doomed as a species.

It really gets to the point where I hope it kills them all. Then we can be “100% sure”.

What bothers me is how many other species we are also dooming. When in South America I actually got to see a Huemal.

The Andean version of a white tailed deer. 99% gone now in so many places down there. Out competed by five non-native species imported for pleasure hunting.

Hope these pics come through

c=US&setlang=en-US&cvid=a7f06ad85c334c598785b5c9b9cf35d7&qs=SW&nclid=29658219405AA070C3063C5E8380BB29&ts=1668137094176&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle

 

[Mustangs Rule]

This should work

://www.cascada.travel/blog/the-huemul-chile-s-national-animal

 

[Mustangs Rule]

This should work

://www.cascada.travel/blog/the-huemul-chile-s-national-animal

South Andean deer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org