Tag your animal immediately!

[Jim-MN-ELK]

Thank you for the replies - cowboy, NoWiser, shoots-straight.

shoots-straight - Yes my tag was notched correctly before I taped it to the left antler.

cowboy, When we saw the herd running towards the tree line they were a loooong way from us. With the cover of trees and the high background behind us, we took off in a flat out run at least 100 yards down to the river bottom flats. My brother was off to my right and a bit forward of me. He called the distance with his "fancy" binocs at 287 yards. When we saw the bull was down, Warren back-tracked up through the cotton woods around 100 yards to retrieve our packs where we had dropped them. I could see elk horns just above the grass and started a very slow walk towards the elk. When I was around 100 yards from the bull, to my surprise he stood up and started walking to my left. I fired an off-hand shot but didn't see any change in his stride... I chambered another round and fired one more off-hand shot... he went down for good. Total hits were three... that bull was so strong in defying three good hits, I had great remorse for any suffering he had sustained and I felt bad that my first shot had not done the job. He was laying on the far side of some open water with his rear legs still in the water. I was so thrilled I guess I didn't think anything about walking through knee deep water to reach him. My license was in my breast pocket but my knifes, rope and other essentials' were in my pack. Warren arrived shortly after and he noticed a small and very narrow beaver damn maybe 75 feet away. I then threw him a stick to balance himself as he cross over on the damn. So then we talked about getting the tractor as close as possible, I called his wife via my cell phone so she could pick him up on the highway. We took pictures, Warren took off to meet his ride, I validated and tagged my bull and started dressing him out. Then you've all read what happened next. What really gets me now, is that when the warden showed up he didn't want to get wet or muddy... and asked me to bring him my tag. In retrospect, I guess he wanted to look good for the camera.

Lastly. here's an update on the Owner/Producer who came to visit me. I talked with him on the phone earlier today and asked about the video footage. He said he has seen the first part, but not the last part which was filmed at Warren's ranch during the confiscation. Apparently there's been some "technical glitch". So if it turns out we don't get to see this video, or if it's been edited... Hmmmmm! Well I'd better stop.

Again, thanks for your replies. If anyone has further questions of me, just ask. I'll be checking in.
Jim

 

[Outdoor Junkie]

Hey Buzz,

That's probably the worst possible story I've heard. Are you supposed to take the tag with for each quarter? How do you win with a situation like that?

The whole tagging thing in Montana is a joke...theres so many ways to interpret "transporting", etc.

A bud of mine, an LEO himself, received a $135 ticket for having an untagged elk hind quarter in his truck. He packed the quarter out the first trip, threw it in his truck, and was on his way to camp to get his Dad and Brother to help him with the rest. He left the tag on the remainder of the elk that he left.

Warden scratched him for transporting an elk without a tag...

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Hey Buzz,

That's probably the worst possible story I've heard. Are you supposed to take the tag with for each quarter? How do you win with a situation like that?

You demand that he go back to the rest of the carcass with you, and if he doesn't you take a photo of the tag, on the animal and battle it out. Then, you follow it up with a formal complaint to the supervisor, director, and governor.

 

[cowboy]

Jim:

You never did anything that I or the people I have been with haven't done so many times that it could not be counted.

I very much appreciate hearing your side of the story as this issue has been hasded and rehashed by people I hunt with and other associates many times.

I have nothing but respect for any law enforcement personnel - so I will just leave it at that.

Knowing your approximate age and background all I call say is sometimes "chit happens" - Keep positive and life goes on. I wish you the best.

 

[RobG]

Jim:

You never did anything that I or the people I have been with haven't done so many times that it could not be counted.

I would be too embarrassed to write Jim a ticket for such an oversight while being videoed, but, gee man, isn't that hard to validate your tag right after securing the animal instead of spending twenty minutes making plans to remove it. This serves as a good reminder for us.

Also be aware that in your other example where you laid down your pack that you would be in violation since you need to carry the license on your person. Yes, we get lax with this stuff and expect some leeway from the warden when we space it out, but these rules aren't very complicated and we shouldn't justify not following them.

I don't understand Buzz's friend's ticket as the regulations clearly say that "If quartered, the license should remain with the largest portion of the carcass." Maybe he got a rookie warden.

 

[Outdoor Junkie]

Hey Rob,

No disrespect, but I disagree. At the end of the day the laws are put in place to prevent people from unethically taking an animal without a license. There needs to be room for reasonable interpretation by the warden. Heck, I've watched Randy and the guys from western Hunter drop their packs and make stalks on animals a number of times. I think it's pretty standard practice to keep your tag in the your pack. I keep mine with my kill kit (knife, gloves, etc.) If the people have a legal tag, ethically take an animal and then tag the animal in a reasonable amount of time ( reasonable is dependant on your situation), prior to quartering or packing the animal out, then I think there is absolutley no reason to be issuing a citation. I have not shot a bull elk, but I think that it would likely take me 20-30 minutes for the elation and addrenaline to calm down enough to even think about tagging the animal. The time immediately after the shot is an emotional moment, especially for first timers. I've had a number of times where it has been at least 20 minutes before I tag an animal. One of my favorite things to do is to sit down next to the animal and just take in everything that's just happenned, think back to all that went into that moment, think about the stalk and just say thanks to the Lord for the opportunities I've been given. There is nothing illegal or unethical about that.

Just my thoughts,
Chuck

I would be too embarrassed to write Jim a ticket for such an oversight while being videoed, but, gee man, isn't that hard to validate your tag right after securing the animal instead of spending twenty minutes making plans to remove it. This serves as a good reminder for us.

Also be aware that in your other example where you laid down your pack that you would be in violation since you need to carry the license on your person. Yes, we get lax with this stuff and expect some leeway from the warden when we space it out, but these rules aren't very complicated and we shouldn't justify not following them.

I don't understand Buzz's friend's ticket as the regulations clearly say that "If quartered, the license should remain with the largest portion of the carcass." Maybe he got a rookie warden.

 

[BuzzH]

Rob,

It was a case of transporting the animal without a tag as the quarter in his truck had no tag on it. The explanation he got was that he should have left the quarter hidden somewhere near the road.

Since my buddy would have had to travel back to the county seat to fight it, he just paid the $135 and chalked it up to an overzealous warden.

 

[RobG]

I've had a number of times where it has been at least 20 minutes before I tag an animal. One of my favorite things to do is to sit down next to the animal and just take in everything that's just happenned, think back to all that went into that moment, think about the stalk and just say thanks to the Lord for the opportunities I've been given. There is nothing illegal or unethical about that.

Chuck - I'm not sure how to break it to you, but that and hunting without a license on your person are clearly illegal in MT.

 

[RobG]

Rob,

It was a case of transporting the animal without a tag as the quarter in his truck had no tag on it. The explanation he got was that he should have left the quarter hidden somewhere near the road.

I guess I could see the reasoning behind that law - you could just take it home piece by piece. Glad you said something so we don't make the same mistake.

 

[cowboy]

Chuck - I'm not sure how to break it to you, but that and hunting without a license on your person are clearly illegal in MT.

Yea. - and going 76 mph for 50 ft. on the interstate in Mt. is illegal also. No one is questioning the letter of the law - we all know what the law is.

I guess being reasonable isn't part of anything now days.

 

[Slam]

^^^^^^ Yep!

Couple of things:

1.

Chuck - I'm not sure how to break it to you, but that and hunting without a license on your person are clearly illegal in MT.

Rob, you need to reread Jim's statement, he had his license on him.

2. Its been my experience over the years that young wardens and law enforcement types tend to be more aggressive and not make as wise of decisions as their elders do; same as most of us. A little age tends to give one a better perspective on how to handle things with diplomacy and grace. It is easy to look at this situations in a black/white perspective (he broke the law - therefore a punitive action is mandated) but is that really what the outcome should have been? I think if we were to take a poll on how this was handled 99% would side with Jim getting a raw deal.

3. the wardens superiors are in a delicate situation, it will be interesting to watch and see if they have the courage to bring it to a positive outcome for Jim and a teaching moment for the officer involved.

 

[RobG]

^^^^^^ Yep!

Couple of things:

1. Rob, you need to reread Jim's statement, he had his license on him.

For crying out loud Slam, you need to reread what I wrote before saying I need to reread what Jim wrote.

 

[RobG]

Yea. - and going 76 mph for 50 ft. on the interstate in Mt. is illegal also. No one is questioning the letter of the law - we all know what the law is.

Cowboy - actually Junkie said it wasn't illegal... And, you ever wonder what that smiley thingy is for?

 

[F250]

I was a Game Warden for 36 years. "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" is normally not my thing. However, if the events of that day happened like Jim-MN-ELK explained them, then the Warden's Supervisor needs to be advised. The complaint to the Supervisor needs to be in writing. As much detail should be included as possible. List all witnesses. The Supervisor will have access to that video. Include copies of all your photos. Include copies of all your hunting permits/licenses. Include all your contact info. Mail the packet to him/her by certified mail with a restricted return receipt (must be sign for by the Supervisor only). Request that he/she contact you after receiving the packet. Many Wardens are hunters themselves, and would understand the excitement of taking an elk. However, it seems that many of the Wardens that are being hired today, have little or no hunting experience. They are sent to a Police Academy, and come out Police Officers - not Game Wardens. Common sense, discretion, and the ability to make decisions based on the totality of circumstances are paramount for a Warden to sort out field violations.

 

[mtlion]

If it was me I'd expect I'd be filing a civil suit. I'd sue for every penny that I spent obtaining the tag, traveling to hunt, meals and lodging. I think a good lawyer could swing it as the warden/FWP already appeared to have admitted wrongdoing by giving back the head. After I lawyered up it would be time to start writing letters to every newspaper I could. IMO you have already won in the court of popular opinion and that is something this warden, his supervisors, and the producers of that POS show should clearly understand the ramifications of.

 

[cowboy]

If it was me I'd expect I'd be filing a civil suit. I'd sue for every penny that I spent obtaining the tag, traveling to hunt, meals and lodging. I think a good lawyer could swing it as the warden/FWP already appeared to have admitted wrongdoing by giving back the head. After I lawyered up it would be time to start writing letters to every newspaper I could. IMO you have already won in the court of popular opinion and that is something this warden, his supervisors, and the producers of that POS show should clearly understand the ramifications of.

Welcome to the norm in todays new modern society. Jim would come out all the poorer and his lawyer would just add a deposit to his account to be able to buy some more private land in Montana for his personal use.

 

[ric]

Tagging aside, another problem is someone stealing your deer/elk when you leave it in the woods to go get your pack frame and equipment, and even stealing it from your camp. I learned long ago to take a coin, small rock or anything, slit a deep cut in a quarter and slip your coin into the cut. You will be able to identify your meat even after the tag has been removed. Only you would know where the coin is.

 

[Outdoor Junkie]

That was incredibly refreshing to see that perspective from someone tasked with the responsibility of enforcing the laws. Thanks for what you do!

I was a Game Warden for 36 years. "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" is normally not my thing. However, if the events of that day happened like Jim-MN-ELK explained them, then the Warden's Supervisor needs to be advised. The complaint to the Supervisor needs to be in writing. As much detail should be included as possible. List all witnesses. The Supervisor will have access to that video. Include copies of all your photos. Include copies of all your hunting permits/licenses. Include all your contact info. Mail the packet to him/her by certified mail with a restricted return receipt (must be sign for by the Supervisor only). Request that he/she contact you after receiving the packet. Many Wardens are hunters themselves, and would understand the excitement of taking an elk. However, it seems that many of the Wardens that are being hired today, have little or no hunting experience. They are sent to a Police Academy, and come out Police Officers - not Game Wardens. Common sense, discretion, and the ability to make decisions based on the totality of circumstances are paramount for a Warden to sort out field violations.

 

[Jim-MN-ELK]

F250 Any chance you can come out of retirement? I think Montana could use you in a Warden Re-training Course. Thanks for the advice. My brother and I started doing that... exactly as you suggested. I have received an email back from a FWP Chairman from Livingston and a letter from the Director of the FWP.

Quote by The Chairman. He said "the Commission will be looking at ways to make this particular regulation more clear and to insure that all hunters have the opportunity to be informed of the legal requirements for tagging a big game animal."

As for the Directors reply, I'll just say that he wrote was what he got from listening to the warden and his superiors. He did say that the FWP is in the process of reviewing whether they will continue to participate in future filming for the Wardens TV show. Both men said that they were so sorry this took place.

The produce / owner of that TV show has been in contact with me. The first visit was cordial enough and we talked about what took place that morning while his cameraman was filming. He sounded sincere in his regrets of what happened to me... and in so many words... lead my wife and I to believe that the MT Game Wardens Association felt so bad about this that they were going to pass the hat around to help cover my losses and that this would be done in person... "don't be surprised if you get a visit from Montana". I have asked for a copy of this tape which he agreed to and added maybe sending me a link to view it on line. I stressed to him that his UNEDITED film will show exactly what took place and I consider it to be evidence. If the warden is telling his superiors one side of the story, I want us all to see together. They will see NO INTENT to break the law on my part.

Since then I received an email from the owner/producer saying I should take the apologies, let the wounds heal, forgive them and move on with my life. Because we are on opposite side of the fence, and because his contract with MT FWP may be cancelled, he can no longer volunteer his time in seeing that the wardens association try to compensate me. Let me see........ does that mean I don't get a copy of the video?

I've given my terms for a settlement...
1. Cover my expenses.
2. Make a public statement via Billings Gazette... something like "we got this one wrong" or "we could of handles this one differently".

THEN, I will move on with my life.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

What a bunch of bull! I'm surprised that with all the publicity this has received that the G&F hasn't at least apologized right out in the public venue for this Warden's complete lack of common sense! I also apologize for the post I made making it sound like I had seen the show. I misread some of the member comments before that post and thought some of the members had actually seen the show backing up the brother's statements and was just trying to respond in that manner that the GW made a gross mistake, but I sure did a miserable job of it in that post! After reading the previous post Jim put up it sounds like the videographer is going to try to sweep this under the rug and I guess since they own the video they can do whatever they want with it. It sounds like they have already possibly eliminated any evidence that would back up what Jim and his Brother stated actually happened and that's a shame.