Tag Sabotage

[Adamm88]

Im from pa so ill weigh in on this. i know of people that get two doe tags and sit on them, its thier right but gor me i get two tags snd thays meat in the freezer. i know iv heard of antis picking up tags around philly and Pittsburgh 5c and d and 2b but thats it. Some of the same that conplaine about lack of doe are the sane that plop thendelves 100 yards off the parking lot on the first day of rifle then complains when they font tag out by 9 am

 

[Mallardsx2]

The reason that people are doing this in PA is because the PGC allowed the populations in the Rural areas of the state to be decimated. I watched it happen. It sickened me.

I'm not advocating what they are doing but I respect them for making a stand.

I lived in PA for 32 years and I saw the whole thing unfold....PLEASE DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED.

 

[LopeHunter]

NM used to only require around $5 as a non-resident to enter the drawing. This was around a decade ago. Not sure if required Hunter Safety then. Room for shenanigans by anti's if require no meaningful upfront charge to enter combined with no requirement of Hunter Safety. I could envision a GoFundMe to pay for a Big3 tag and sit on it if an anti drew it.

 

[MJE2083]

The reason that people are doing this in PA is because the PGC allowed the populations in the Rural areas of the state to be decimated. I watched it happen. It sickened me.

I'm not advocating what they are doing but I respect them for making a stand.

I lived in PA for 32 years and I saw the whole thing unfold....PLEASE DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED.

They're far from decimated. Please don't get ME started.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I wont.

I have argued with your type before. lol

:W:

 

[efw]

I've read accounts similar to what the OP described about PA in other forums. I've also seen it discussed on an Iowa specific forum that I am active on. General consensus in these discussions is that buying tags with the intent of not filling them will only lead to more tags being issued when herd numbers don't fall. If change needs to happen then the real way to do it is by not buying the tags and addressing tag allocation numbers with the legislature and management agency.

^ that right there.

Seems like sticking ones finger in a dike otherwise; the deluge will come and you'll run out of resources. Plus giving the very same state agency that you see as the problem more of your money seems not merely futile but counter productive.

Some of us (I've been known to have this attitude for sure) just like to chuckle at our "intelligence" and ability to stymie "the man's" attempts to control us or something we care about.

Here in Michigan I saw this sort of thing on a less organized basis in the late 90s after the herd was restored and individuals which the attitude described above did exactly what the OP describes but never saw the level of organization he is talking about.

I was in Pa this past season and had a blast had to work my a$$ off but saw plenty of deer can't imagine complaining. Gorgeous country too. Will be back again this fall with some pards.

Y'all oughta raise your non-res tag prices it's crazy inexpensive. I love it but I'd happily pay more.

 

[tim629]

I grew up in PA, still go back yearly to hunt bear & deer.

here are a few of my thoughts:

-YES the days of spotlighting and seeing 100+ deer in one field are done, but that is a good thing
-YES there are some people that buy tags and just sit on them, that is their prerogative
-YES there are people that buy the doe tags and sit on them but their "wife" gets a buck every year too
-YES I personally think the deer management plan is working, i've hunted the same general area and have been seeing just as many if not more deer the past few years
-YES the antler restrictions are working, I haven't shot a buck in PA in a few years, but i've seen more bucks just can't always get the last magical point on them but that is ok by me

so all in all, the anti's can try to disrupt a system, some within our own ranks can try to outsmart the state agencies but as others have said, if the objective isn't met no matter what the reason then next year more tags will become available thus making more $$ for the state

 

[MJE2083]

^ that right there.

Seems like sticking ones finger in a dike otherwise; the deluge will come and you'll run out of resources. Plus giving the very same state agency that you see as the problem more of your money seems not merely futile but counter productive.

Some of us (I've been known to have this attitude for sure) just like to chuckle at our "intelligence" and ability to stymie "the man's" attempts to control us or something we care about.

Here in Michigan I saw this sort of thing on a less organized basis in the late 90s after the herd was restored and individuals which the attitude described above did exactly what the OP describes but never saw the level of organization he is talking about.

I was in Pa this past season and had a blast had to work my a$$ off but saw plenty of deer can't imagine complaining. Gorgeous country too. Will be back again this fall with some pards.

Y'all oughta raise your non-res tag prices it's crazy inexpensive. I love it but I'd happily pay more.

They need to raise ALL prices, but it takes an act of congress to do so(no joke). From my understanding there hasn't been a license fee increase since the late 1990's. They receive no money from general funds. Of course there is plenty of opposition from those who feel that the game commission is a bloated bureaucracy, blah blah blah. I'd gladly pay more as well.

Hunting has certainly gotten better in recent years with the antler restrictions. By "better" I mean larger more mature bucks.

 

[Mallardsx2]

http://www.paenvironmentdigest.com/newsletter/?NewsletterArticleID=38801

I remember when the PGC got their first Marcellus Gas royalty checks.... they all got brand new vehicles statewide. Then they invested in expanding pheasant farms that where in a certified floodplain... it flooded and 45,000 pheasants died....

Then they issued 4x the amount of doe tags and destroyed the deer herd statewide...(pushing most youth out of the sport) ultimately cutting the deer herd in half causing every landowner statewide to post their property and hate their neighbors...all of this due to the lobbyists at the farm bureau and the insurance companies to line their pockets with higher yields and lower insurance payouts...

On top of that the PGC has its hands tied on harvesting timber to make a ton of money (which I advocate and welcome clearcutting for game habitat) because they don't want to flood the markets with timer...

They have been in self destruct mode since about 2000. I saw it happen first hand.

The issue isn't with a lack of funding...

It's a lack of fund management..

As is the case with almost every government agency....

A bunch of bureaucratic hypocrites....and now they want us to feel sorry for them.

I have several friends who work at the PGC and they have commented to be on 100 occasions as to the wasting that goes on at the PGC.

And perhaps my favorite part of all of this is that I have several friends in the state who farm for a living. The PGC refuses to lease fields to them to farm because they ask for an outlandish amount per acre. It doesn't make it worth their time to plant them. So in Northwestern PA there is about 5000 acres of fields that are left to sit dormant with nothing but weeds and goldenrod growing in them.

Tripping over dollars to pick up dimes and not capitalizing on the resources they have right under their noses.

Raise the license price? For what? What is the PGC doing for us as landowners and farmers??

Most people who put in their .02$ don't own land and/or live in the city. The people at the PGC are and have been following fictitious data for years with a broken reporting system for all animals harvested. They just don't get it.

Rant over..

 

[MJE2083]

http://www.paenvironmentdigest.com/newsletter/?NewsletterArticleID=38801

I remember when the PGC got their first Marcellus Gas royalty checks.... they all got brand new vehicles statewide. Then they invested in expanding pheasant farms that where in a certified floodplain... it flooded and 45,000 pheasants died....

Then they issued 4x the amount of doe tags and destroyed the deer herd statewide...(pushing most youth out of the sport) ultimately cutting the deer herd in half causing every landowner statewide to post their property and hate their neighbors...all of this due to the lobbyists at the farm bureau and the insurance companies to line their pockets with higher yields and lower insurance payouts...

On top of that the PGC has its hands tied on harvesting timber to make a ton of money (which I advocate and welcome clearcutting for game habitat) because they don't want to flood the markets with timer...

They have been in self destruct mode since about 2000. I saw it happen first hand.

The issue isn't with a lack of funding...

It's a lack of fund management..

As is the case with almost every government agency....

A bunch of bureaucratic hypocrites....and now they want us to feel sorry for them.

I have several friends who work at the PGC and they have commented to be on 100 occasions as to the wasting that goes on at the PGC.

And perhaps my favorite part of all of this is that I have several friends in the state who farm for a living. The PGC refuses to lease fields to them to farm because they ask for an outlandish amount per acre. It doesn't make it worth their time to plant them. So in Northwestern PA there is about 5000 acres of fields that are left to sit dormant with nothing but weeds and goldenrod growing in them.

Tripping over dollars to pick up dimes and not capitalizing on the resources they have right under their noses.

Raise the license price? For what? What is the PGC doing for us as landowners and farmers??

Most people who put in their .02$ don't own land and/or live in the city. The people at the PGC are and have been following fictitious data for years with a broken reporting system for all animals harvested. They just don't get it.

Rant over..

Here we go.... I have SOOO many questions.

Yes no kids hunt anymore. All deer are dead. All property posted. Car Insurance companies paid off the game commission to kill off all the deer, didn't they stock all the coyotes too?

Why aren't all your friends reporting this waste to anyone? Why isn't the media picking up on all this waste? If they have it so great and are making so much money driving around in new vehicles why are they complaining so much to you? Since when does the game commission lease game lands property to farmers to plant crops?

All data is fake. Conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy

 

[Mallardsx2]

Keep in mind that I am NOT a member of the United sportsman association...but I think anyone who gives a rats hiney about this topic can find all of the evidence related to this topic at the following we site... http://www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org/

Sir, I do appreciate your input. I truly do.

"Since when does the PGC lease game lands property to farmers to farm?"

You have got to be kidding me...

"Stocking coyotes?"

You have got to be kidding me...

Having said that I will say that I agree that there is an overabundance of deer in PA IN CERTAIN AREAS.

These areas more specifically are around the Urban environments (Pittsburgh, Philly, West Chester, etc etc) where hunting permission is either unobtainable or impossible to achieve.

However these areas with a + population are wrapped up in the same WMU as the state forest lands and game lands for total population count of animals WMU wide.

So where do people hunt? They hunt in the game lands and state forests, filling their deer tags in places where the population is suffering and in my opinion continues to suffer.

The best course of action would be to do away with the WMU and go back to county allocations of antlerless licenses. This EVEN TO YOU would make the most sense would it not? It would allow for a more MICRO management of the deer population in highly populated areas. To the people who have properties in counties where the deer population is exploding it would allow them A LOT more opportunities to kill deer and it would help with the real problem while allowing the state game lands populations to rebound.

From an outsiders perspective I would say that the big difference between these eastern states and the western states is Migration. Eastern deer don't migrate to places that you can kill them. They simply stay in places that they are safe year round and populate.

There is a lot of factors to think about.

 

[MJE2083]

Keep in mind that I am NOT a member of the United sportsman association...but I think anyone who gives a rats hiney about this topic can find all of the evidence related to this topic at the following we site... http://www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org/

Sir, I do appreciate your input. I truly do.

"Since when does the PGC lease game lands property to farmers to farm?"

You have got to be kidding me...

"Stocking coyotes?"

You have got to be kidding me...

Having said that I will say that I agree that there is an overabundance of deer in PA IN CERTAIN AREAS.

These areas more specifically are around the Urban environments (Pittsburgh, Philly, West Chester, etc etc) where hunting permission is either unobtainable or impossible to achieve.

However these areas with a + population are wrapped up in the same WMU as the state forest lands and game lands for total population count of animals WMU wide.

So where do people hunt? They hunt in the game lands and state forests, filling their deer tags in places where the population is suffering and in my opinion continues to suffer.

The best course of action would be to do away with the WMU and go back to county allocations of antlerless licenses. This EVEN TO YOU would make the most sense would it not? It would allow for a more MICRO management of the deer population in highly populated areas. To the people who have properties in counties where the deer population is exploding it would allow them A LOT more opportunities to kill deer and it would help with the real problem while allowing the state game lands populations to rebound.

From an outsiders perspective I would say that the big difference between these eastern states and the western states is Migration. Eastern deer don't migrate to places that you can kill them. They simply stay in places that they are safe year round and populate.

There is a lot of factors to think about.

Mallard we are clearly not going to see eye to eye on this.

I'm glad to see that you at least don't seem to believe that coyotes were stocked in PA by car insurance companies to kill all the deer. You do seem to believe that the game commission is making hunters kill off all the deer (for the car insurance companies)

The Unified Sportsmen organization that you reference is the biggest bunch of idiots and cry babies that I have ever seen. These are the guys that I'm taking about!! The ones that are buying up doe tags to intentionally keep them out of the hands of people who will use them. I'm glad that you're not a member but the fact that you believe the nonsense they talk about is concerning. Their entire selfish mantra is based on: "I used to see 100 deer a day and now I only see a few". Yes there used to be A LOT of deer, was that good for the herd, environment, etc...? NO. Too many deer is not a good thing! Unless you're a selfish hunter who only cares about how many deer you see and kill.

What you're saying about the WMU's is also false. If you look at the map of the WMU's and public land you will see that. WMU 2A which consists of Pittsburgh and the surrounding area consists of 1 small game lands, 0 state forest land, and only 1 small state park that allows hunting(Allegheny Islands). WMU 5D which contains Philly, West chester, etc... there is 0 game lands, small small tracts of state parks/forests open only to limited hunting. I get what you're saying in general you want micro management instead of the WMU system. I don't really care one way or the other but deer don't care what county they are in or what WMU they are in. The WMU system to me at least seemed to be an effort to lump together areas of similar habitat, human population,etc... But I don't agree that large cities are skewing population numbers. I don't think a micromanagement is going to be any cost savings to the PGC and I know you don't want that license increase.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I only have two further questions for you.

Do you live in a city?

And

Are you a landowner? (Specifically do you personally own more than 10 acres)

 

[squirrel]

Mallard you just struck on the core issue (for the record most of your assertions are based on facts their effects are open to interpretation) It is a city vs country divide and is irreconcilable IMO.

I know people who have killed 5-10 deer per year and won't even eat venison. They just like to kill them and the tags are valid, i.e. "we need to do this" kill the deer to save the deer.

Many people liked the old days of seeing 50 (or more!) seventy five pound deer per day of hunting up in the mountains. I did not but many did, it was always interesting!

Many country people (who own the "country") now allow no hunting or no doe hunting due to what they see as mismanagement. (with the new seasons' structuring they mostly have just said @#$% it! no hunting period) Many buy all the doe tags they can and sit on them in a "protest vote" I never really understood the point, giving $ to those you accuse of having screwed you.

I guess if you are the "allstate man" you appreciate not seeing 75 dead deer during the rut between I-80 and Pittsburgh on #79 (per side!)

G.A. told people the truth but most only heard the parts they wanted to hear. I know people who killed all the extra does as per plan and stayed on the kill anything with horns bandwagon (they are MY deer it's my cornfield) and then couldn't believe they had no deer... not exactly unforeseeable???

The good news is there is really good deer hunting available, the bad news is it ain't in PA

 

[MJE2083]

I only have two further questions for you.

Do you live in a city?

And

Are you a landowner? (Specifically do you personally own more than 10 acres)

I do not live in a city

I do not own more than 10 acres


Somehow where I live and how much land I own has something to do with deer populations? I've hunted and fished all over the central and western half of the State as well as in Maryland and WV. If you're talking about the Pocono's you're right I have NO idea how the deer population is out there.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Thanks for answering my questions.

Good day sir

 

[MJE2083]

Ok yeah, you won! Conrgats. I guess because I don't own a large piece of property my observations are meaningless. Maybe if I bought the farm next door things would be different.