Swift Boat Group Leader Exposed as Fraud

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

I agree completely, MoveOn is a group that was developed to get around McCainFeingold and so was the Swiftboat group.

I beleive MarS was trying to make the point that the Swifties had 10,000 donors, when in fact, it is 2 Texan Republicans and some other guys who gave up lunch money.

I think, to get into a Dubya campaign stop, you have to sign papers swearing allegiance to Dubya, denouncing Kerry, signing on to the Swifties, and giving up your right to clean air. That may be where they got 10k names that Mars was alluding to.

I would love to see the end of the 527s, but everybody should have a voice. I just think it is all about accountability, and the Swifties have been dishonest from day 1, and Dubya has refused to denounce them.

When MoveOn steps across a line, Kerry has whapped their knuckles.

I heard some commentator on the radio last night call this the dirtiest campaign ever, and I tend to agree.

I think the Kerry folks learned quite a bit about Dubya's dirty tricks from the 2000 election and the crap the "Fresh Air" guys pulled on McCain. That is why they likley will not quite exposing the swifties as the fraud they are....

 

[Nemont]

EG,

Tell me what is 100% false about what the swifties are saying about Kerry. Think about it, they are pissed off about being called murderers, rapist and thugs. That was a lie about the majority of what these guys stood for. They are disputing Kerry's version of incidents that took place over 30 years ago.

To say the John Kerry acted honorably upon his return is not accurate. Again he could have protested the war by attacking the people in national command authority instead he stated in a senate hearing what his beliefs were and called out his former comrades.

I had 125 guys in my company, probably over 500 rotated through as I spent my whole 5and 1/2 year career in the same unit. I bet you couldn't find 3 guys who disliked me enough to write a book. Something about the men that Kerry came in contact with turning upon him makes me wonder what actually happened. Because where there is smoke there is usually fire. Kerry did somethings while in Vietnam that must have really upset these guys. He must have showed a flaw in his character. I don't but I don't believe the swiftiest are taking their orders from Carl Rove. It is too personal.

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

Look at the dishonesty of the Chairman of the Swifties, a retired Admiral. Talk about FlipFlopping....

Swift Boat Vets chairman's evolving story about knowing Kerry in Vietnam


Retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, chairman and co-founder of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, has changed his story about whether or not he actually knew Senator John Kerry in Vietnam.

May 6: "Hoffman acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally." [Milwaukee Journal Sentinel]

August 4: "'I knew him well enough to know him," Hoffman said. 'He's the most vain individual I've ever met - aloof and arrogant.'" [Scripps Howard News Service]

August 5: Hoffman said, "We were on the same operations, we were operating within 25-50 yards of him all the time, and for them to suggest we don't know John Kerry is pure old bull." [The New York Times]

August 5: In response to Senator John McCain's (R-AZ) denunciation of the ad, Hoffman "said they respected McCain's 'right to express his opinion and we hope he extends to us the same respect and courtesy, particularly since we served with John Kerry, we knew him well and Sen. McCain did not.'" [Associated Press]

August 5: Hoffman said, "I knew him well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats" - a dramatic shift from admitting no personal knowledge of Kerry three months earlier; it went unchallenged by his host. [ABC Radio's Sean Hannity Show]

In the Swift Boat Veterans' ad, Hoffman states, "John Kerry has not been honest." Well, he should know.

And I bet I could find guys who were in your unit AFTER you were there, or who never knew you, who would gladly sign something that says you were "unfit for command" for the opportunity for other "favors" or even just 15 minutes of fame.

Look at Hoffman being exposed, and Thurlow.... You don't think there are others?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

Here is another of the Swifities from the ad admidting to not knowing Kerry, despite what he says in the advertisment...

A Clackamas County prosecutor and decorated Vietnam veteran who appears in an ad attacking Democratic presidential contender John F. Kerry's war record said he did not witness the events in question and is relying on the accounts of his friends who served with the senator.

The 60-second ad, which aired for seven days this month in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, features 13 Vietnam veterans, including Alfred French, 58, a senior deputy district attorney in Clackamas County.

In the ad, French says: "I served with John Kerry. . . . He is lying about his record."

The ad was paid for by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group of 300 Vietnam veterans who served in Swift boats and say Kerry has lied about his war record and disgraced his fellow veterans by publicly opposing the conflict upon his return home. The group said the ad will be aired again, though it has not decided where it will be shown.

French, in an interview Thursday, said Kerry lied about the circumstances that led to one of his Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star. Kerry received a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts commanding a Swift boat in Vietnam.

French said he is relying on the accounts of three other veterans who were friends of his at the time. A fourth veteran with whom French was acquainted corroborated their accounts.

"I was not a witness to these events but my friends were," said French, who was awarded two Bronze Stars during the war. "I believe these people. These are people I served with."

One of the men is Larry Thurlow , a leader of the veterans group and one of Kerry's most vocal critics. Thurlow, who served alongside Kerry, has disputed Kerry's claim that the senator's boat was under fire in March 1969 when he pulled Lt. Jim Rassmann out of the water.

But according to Thurlow's military records, obtained this week by The Washington Post, the five-boat flotilla was under enemy fire that day.

French -- relying on friends' accounts -- said Rassmann would have been picked up by another boat if Kerry had not helped. And French said any shots that were fired came from U.S. soldiers providing cover as Rassmann and two others were rescued.

"It's not like he wouldn't have been saved if Kerry had not been there," French said. "I don't believe they were under any fire when that happened. None of the other boats were damaged."

He said Rassmann's rescue did not merit a special honor.

"Somebody fell off your boat and you go back and pick him up," French said. "It's not worthy of a Bronze Star in my opinion."

Rassmann, who lives in Florence and is campaigning for Kerry, said the ad is motivated in part by some veterans' anger over Kerry's antiwar stance upon returning home -- a charge French acknowledges. Rassmann said the group's claims are completely false.

"To come back 35 years later and conjure up fabricated stories is the lowest form of politics," said Rassmann, who said he does not know French.

"I honor these guys for their service," Rassmann said. "I know they were very courageous, along with John Kerry, and it saddens me that they are all at one another's throats."

French, a registered Republican, said he was reluctant at first to take part in the ad but ultimately "decided it was something I needed to do."

French said his one-year tour of duty in Vietnam overlapped Kerry's by two months. He said they served together in the same unit in January and February 1969. He said he did not know Kerry well during that time .

 

[Nemont]

So you believe all of these guys are willing to put their entire reputations on the line for a lie to help defeat John Kerry. Most of the veterans I know believe in Honor. I just can't imagine they are all lying for 15 minutes of fame.

I just don't buy that there isn't something more there. If Kerry had proof to shut these guys up he would have already used it. No, something else is at work here.

Again I have not read the book but intend to. Have you read it?

If people I never served with accused me of anything I could get a company roster to show that everyone who served with me and everyone who didn't. Publish it and end the controversy. There is some elements of the truth in what the Swifties are saying otherwise Kerry's campaign would just let it die.

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

Before you waste your money on the book, do a little research on the Co-Author, Corsi.


As for the motivation on these vets, who knows why. But just look here in SI, the Dubya supporters aren't all that bright , I would guess the Dubya supporters that are vets aren't that bright either.... Look at all the crap that Dubya supporters post here, thinking that it is true. My guess is the swifties have the same low standards of other right-wing nuts. If the guy from Oregon is on the advertisment is relying on 2nd and 3rd hand information, the whole thing is likely suspect.

I don't think I will read the book, as my "to read" list has many other books that I need to get to, and I don't think this book is even causing 1% of the discussion that Moore's movie did.

The swift Ads are causing some discussion, and I would like to see them, but have not. I have read the text and the rebuttals, and they appear to be "carefully crafted" advertisments.

 

[Nemont]

EG,
I doubt your analysis that these vets, not to mention Bush supporters, aren't very bright. There are just as many leftwing nuts as rightwing nuts. To claim the other side is just a bunch of nuts means that debate cannot take place and that is a bad thing.

I have spent literally hours going through JFK's senate voting record, at least from 1988 to present, I tend to ignore his Vietnam service as an issue though his actions afterward are fair game. I will tell you that I cannot support him because of his record in the senate. Reviewed his votes on intelligence service funding, reviewed his votes on funding military hardware, reviewed his votes on the environment ( you may be surprised by a lot of those), His voting regarding many issues important to the west is almost entirely against what I believe.

I know that if a person chooses to only read and listen to one side of an issue they are missing out on forming a complete opinion. That is why I think it is important to read and listen to liberal sources as well as conservative sources. To not read the book because it has not generated the same kind of debate as F/9-11 is kind of a cop out. Hell I listen to air America everyday. Read all of Al Frankens books. Also listen to Hannity and Larry Elders (I gave up on Rush). Read Rich Lowery as well. I don't care for Ann Coulter's style.

So I don't feel like a stupid Bush supporter.

Nemont

 

[Michaelr]

3 posts in a row and YOU compare cali to paws??

http://www.huntandlodge.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=006939

You know what would really shut his board down, is if Elkchsr registers.... Since it looks like the Imaginary Corporal posts 4 times for every other post, if The Cheese were to come back, they could soon reach infinity.....

What was that about a kettle?

 

[wyomingtim]

OK, why were we all encouraged by certain people to just go see the Michael "I'm a fat socialist" Moore's film yet now we are told not to "waste our money" on this book? Just curious, what makes it necessary for us to see that movie before we can criticize it but you don't have to read the book to do so? Double standards. The liberal way.

 

[chas031]

EG,
"As for the motivation on these vets, who knows why."
Just follow the money!! Texas oil money. I have to wonder just how much these individual put into the Republican coffers as well??

Chas

 

[Nemont]

Chas,
Do you realize Kerry's band of brothers are all on his campaigns payroll? All bought and paid for as well. It isn't just Texas oil money that corrupts people it is also liberal George Soros money .

Nemont

[ 08-20-2004, 16:34: Message edited by: Nemont ]

 

[Hangar18]

So why haven't any of the media dug up the contributers list to MoveOn.org, the Media Fund, etc. Does anyone think that McCain is now regretting some of the language in the McCain - Feingold Act?

"The dirty work thus far has been done much more to Kerry's benefit than to Bush's. Estimates from last month indicate that Democratic "leaning" 527s such as MoveOn, the Media Fund and America Coming Together had spent some $50 million on TV ads -- almost all of them attacking Bush. Much has been made by Kerry supporters of the 'positive' campaign the Democrat has run on the airwaves. But that's easy to do when you're getting support from other sources on the negative front" -- National Journal columnist Vaughn Ververs

edit: spelling

[ 08-20-2004, 16:35: Message edited by: Hangar18 ]

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

I was just being honest as to why I doubt I read the book. If Corsi was a Pulitzer prize winning author and had some credibility as a detailed reporter, I would perhaps read it. Michael Moore is an Acadamey Award winning director who had a history of making good movies, so I saw it. I think they are different.

If you go to the buckfush.com website, there are a dozen books for sale, all discrediting Dubya. I won't waste my time reading any of them, as they are just hatchett jobs. My reading time is precious, and I am pretty protective of it. I guess I will judge a book by its' cover....

I do listen to some of the Right wing nuts on the AM radio, and I mostly get put-off by their evasiveness at answering questions of them. They make themselves INTO the story, but then won't defend their own positions. Soon I end up listening to ESPN sports radio.....

 

[Nemont]

EG,
Spend any time listening to the left side of the radio dial. Al Franken employs the exact same tactics. It is all "satire" of course.

I really don't care if you read the book. If you limit your reading to pulitzer prize winning authors and academy award winning directors I don't know what to tell you. There are a lot of informative books, fiction and nonfiction, whose authors will never win a pulitzer price.

Suppose if Michael Moore were a republican he would have ever won any award for his movies. I doubt it but that is just my opinion.

I don't agree with Corsi but it strikes me as odd that this has struck such a chord with JFK. If he is elected this little book will be patty cake compared to what is to come. He may want to grow a thicker skin.

Do you think that the American voters can sift through all the chaff to find the truth?

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

I think there was a bit of fear that the mis-information by the Swifties and the book might make headway. So, ala James Carvelle, the Kerry team had to attack.

They were hoping not to have to spend $$$ in August, as they are now on the Matching $$$$ since the Demo convention is done, while Dubya is still on the unlimited spending spree until the GOP convention.

And I don't have Satelite radio, so I can't get Air America....

And as for my reading, I probably plead guilty, but I don't read books for eductation/information. I read books for fun. Most of my information comes from the Newspapers.

 

[JoseCuervo]

And now Kerry has filed a lawsuit to stop the ads.... There must be some merit to Kerry's position, or he would not risk the lawsuit.

Why doesn't Dubya take McCain's advice and denounce the Swift group???

FORT MYERS, Fla. (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry asked the Federal Election Commission on Friday to force Republican critics to withdraw ads challenging his military service, and accused the Bush campaign of illegally helping coordinate the attacks.
The Kerry campaign said it filed the complaint against the group behind the ads, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, "for violating the law with inaccurate ads that are illegally coordinated with the Bush-Cheney presidential campaign and Republican National Committee."

The campaign said there is "overwhelming evidence" that the group is coordinating its spending on advertising and other activities with the President Bush's campaign for reelection.

Bush campaign spokesman Scott Stanzel denied any coordination with the Swift Boat group, called it "a frivolous complaint."

Bush and a top adviser have long-standing ties to people behind the advertisements, which claim Kerry lied about his Vietnam War service record, but the campaign denies any part in the ads themselves.

The White House has declined to specifically condemn the Swift Boat commercials. It has instead challenged Kerry to join Bush in calling for an end to all ads funded by unrestricted donations, including those questioning Bush's service in the United States in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.

 

[JoseCuervo]

'Veterans for Truth' or Republican reptiles? Kerry senses hand of Bush in attacks on his war record
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
21 August 2004


Exasperated by weeks of allegations that he exaggerated his combat record in Vietnam, John Kerry has finally turned on the veterans making the claims, accusing them of doing President George Bush's dirty work.

Mr Kerry has filed a complaint with government regulators alleging that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth "illegally co-ordinated with the Bush- Cheney presidential campaign".

David Wade, a spokesman for the Kerry campaign, said: "It is time for the FEC to do what John McCain said is honourable and what George Bush didn't have the courage to do and that's get these lies off the airways."

Mr Kerry's aides said a decision was taken during the week to attack the veterans after it was revealed that several news organisations were investigating their backgrounds. Several exposés have revealed that many of the veterans decrying Mr Kerry and featuring in a television commercial, in which they call him a liar, have close links with the Republican hierarchy and to Mr Bush's senior adviser, Karl Rove.

"The fact that the President won't denounce what they're up to tells you everything you need to know ­ he wants them to do his dirty work," Mr Kerry told an audience in Boston on Thursday. "The President keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that."

He added: "He wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam. Here is my answer: bring it on." Mr Kerry's heated comments reveal not only the increasingly bitter and bloody nature of the election campaign, but also the importance the Democrats have placed in Mr Kerry's record as a US Navy swift boat commander in Vietnam, where he won three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and Silver Star.

Aware that Democrats are traditionally attacked ­ and are perceived to be weaker by voters ­ on the issue of national defence and security, a decision was taken to push Mr Kerry's military record. At the party's convention last month, the candidate's service record was a topic repeatedly mentioned by speakers and it featured in a small biographical film about Mr Kerry, who started his final-night speech to delegates with the words: "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty." Some of Mr Kerry's colleagues from Vietnam shared the stage with him.

Mr Kerry's claims have been countered by another group of veterans, who say he has exaggerated his experiences and insinuate that, rather than being wounded by the enemy, he may have injured himself ­ perhaps deliberately. In the ad produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, one veteran, Rear Admiral Ron Hoffman, says: "John Kerry has not been honest." Another veteran, John O'Neill, has co-authored a book, Unfit for Command, which makes similar claims.

But investigations by American newspapers, including The New York Times and Washington Post, have revealed links between the group and senior Republicans, suggesting their actions have been carefully choreographed to cause maximum damage to Mr Kerry.

The investigations have also uncovered inaccuracies and inconsistencies in their comments. Records show, for instance, that the group received the bulk of its initial funding from men with close links to President Bush ­ one a trustee of Mr Bush's father's presidential library and the other an associate of Mr Rove.

The reports also show that a publicist in Texas who helped Mr Bush's father prepare for a presidential debate provided advice to the group, while the company that produced the television ad previously made an ad that mocked Michael Dukakis, the Democratic candidate in 1988.

Reporters have also found that many of the comments made by members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth do not match things they had previously said. For example, in 2003, Mr Hoffman told The Boston Globe newspaper that Mr Kerry's actions in Vietnam "took guts and I admire that".

In an unpublished interview, he also told Mr Kerry's biographer, Douglas Brinkley, that while he disagreed with Mr Kerry's anti-war views, "I am not going to say anything bad about him. He's a good man".

Mr Bush has refused to directly condemn the ad, but a spokesman for his campaign, Steve Schmidt, said the allegation the President was in league with the group criticising Mr Kerry's war record "is absolutely and completely false", adding: "The Bush campaign has never and will never question John Kerry's service in Vietnam."

A poll for CBS has suggested Mr Kerry's support among veterans has fallen following the attacks on him. The poll showed that after the party's convention, Mr Kerry and Mr Bush were tied at 46 points each among veterans. Now the polls say Mr Bush leads by 55 to 37 per cent among that group.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

Do you really think these Swift Boat vets are "grassroots" and for the "truth"?

CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - President Bush and a top adviser have long-standing ties to people behind advertisements claiming Sen. John Kerry lied about his war record, but the campaign denied any part in the ads on Friday and criticized Kerry for "losing his cool."

"We weren't involved in any way in these ads," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan, who in a new line of attack said Bush's Democratic rival had been "losing his cool" over the accusations.

Kerry said on Thursday that a group called the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was "a front for the Bush campaign" funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor in Texas, Bush's home state.

McClellan said Kerry had been "angry" about the advertising campaign and Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot said in an interview on CNN that he looked "wild-eyed" talking about it.

Kerry campaign spokesman David Wade responded tersely to McClellan's comments on Friday. "Maybe if George Bush had seen combat up close his hired gun mouthpiece wouldn't be so flip about the dishonest and dishonorable attack funded by the President's Texas pals," he said.

The latest comments made by McClellan and Racicot were similar to those Bush's allies used to portray Sen. John McCain as "unstable" and temperamental in the 2000 race for the Republican nomination.

McClellan described the Republican donor, Bob Perry, as "a supporter" of the president, and acknowledged Perry's personal ties with Bush's top political adviser, Karl Rove .

"But that still shouldn't be used to draw any connection there because we have not been involved in this ad whatsoever," McClellan said.

And now Perry has contributed $200k to this group of Vets..... Do we really think this is not a GOP attack???

Perry has contributed $200,000 to Swift Boat Veterans, according to an analysis by Texans for Public Justice, a nonpartisan research organization that tracks money in Texas politics.

Records show Perry is also a long-time Bush supporter. He contributed $46,000 to Bush's 1994 and 1998 campaigns for Texas governor, and has contributed the maximum allowable $2,000 to Bush's current reelection.

Perry also worked with Rove as early as 1986 when Perry served as campaign treasurer for Republican gubernatorial candidate William Clements and Rove served as a campaign consultant and fundraiser, Texans for Public Justice said.

Perry was the largest single contributor to the Texas Republican Party during the 2002 election cycle, giving $905,000.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Why doesn't Dubya take McCain's advice and denounce the Swift group???

Bush campaign spokesman Scott Stanzel denied any coordination with the Swift Boat group, called it "a frivolous complaint."

a spokesman for his campaign, Steve Schmidt, said the allegation the President was in league with the group criticising Mr Kerry's war record "is absolutely and completely false", adding: "The Bush campaign has never and will never question John Kerry's service in Vietnam."

 

[chas031]

Nemont,
"Do you think that the American voters can sift through all the chaff to find the truth? "

Apparently not, considering that "Wag the Dog" should have won an Academy Award for Documentary.
Like I said before, pick your puppet. The only REAL difference is going to be the lobbies, and pork attachments to states fundings. At least with Kerry, MA MAY see some of that "Trickle down" we hear so much about!!

Chas