Camping trip incident

[Irrelevant]

After thinking about this for a while, I thought I would run a situation I found myself in by the HT crowd and get your thoughts.

Boat-in camping over Memorial Day weekend. Have 4 of 6 sites taken with our group, two fams, 4 adults, 4 kids (7-14). Another group shows up at 4 pm and takes a spot. Nice people in their 40s. Just as it's starting to get dark, 815, another boat comes flying around both sides of the spit the campground is on. Never pulls into the dock, never checks to see if there are any spots. Proceeds to run his jet boat up onto the shore, directly in front of my wifes and I tent (<50ft away), on top of my kid's homemade raft (with bright green straps), and starts playing AC/DC as loud as possible while building a fire on the beach. We all just kinda stare at the guy with a WTF are you doing look. He probably overhears us complain/remark about him being an ass. I'm like level 10 pissed. This isn't what you do in a wilderness setting. Then the guy pulls out a handgun and starts shooting at rocks and logs. Not shooting directly at us, but the ricochets are going everywhere. At one point, he stares at my buddy's wife while he's shooting off the side of the boat (90 degs off). Our group is unarmed. We don't have cell reception to call the sheriff, and it's not an inreach button type of situation (at least I don't perceive it to be). We huddle up. My buddy initially suggested just waiting him out and keeping our heads down. I voted for someone to go down lake and call the law. But within a few minutes, and another round of shots, we elect to just leave as a group. We leave all of our camping and sleeping stuff as it's just about dark and just get the #*^@#* out. I checked in with the other group before we left. They thought it was fireworks, but after I told them it was a gun, they said they'd stay as they also had a handgun on them.

Returning to the boat ramp, I call the non-emergency line and tell the operator, then a deputy, the situation. They said they'd check it out if they could arrange backup. We then drive the hr home and in the morning drive the hour back, launch the boat and head to camp. The guy is gone. None of our shit is messed with.

The rest of the weekend goes great.

Questions:
1. Did I overreact?
2. Should I go get a handgun (I don't have any)?
3. Would it have helped or hurt in the situation?
4. How big of a deal is it that the Sheriff never came?

 

[The_Jim]

You should definitely carry a handgun for self defense BUT leaving was the right decision armed or unarmed.

Nobody should know your carrying unless your ready to use your weapon.

 

[TOGIE]

no video or pictures? i think you played it out fine. best not to approach a guy like that. but pictures and video should still be sent to the sheriff.

as much as i wanna say you should have a handgun with you, like always, odds are higher people die just by virtue of you having one in that situation. i agree with above, even if you had a handgun, don't talk to the guy and don't approach, leaving was the right call.

i assume the sheriff was not close at all and balls deep in similar or worse calls to tend to on memorial day weekend.

curious, and i'm re reading it all - did he technically break any laws? that "target shooting" is obviously questionable at best.

 

[WyoCoalMiner]

My $0.02.

1. Maybe. Hard to say for sure given we weren't there.
2. No.
3. Hurt
4. Not a big deal to me.

 

[cgasner1]

Personally on a trip like that I won’t leave the house without my handgun. It wouldn’t have mattered in this situation other than piece of mind I guess because by the time someone knows I have a handgun they will need a body bag. If you get one it will due zero good to just pull it out because you have one. even having one just leaving would have been the proper course if that’s the way you felt

 

[Nameless Range]

The really f'n sucks. Though I have never had that happen to me, I have been in situations in the woods where the lawlessness and perceived threat of shady bastards near by made my family uncomfortable, and have had to discern the path forward in terms of confrontation vs retreat.

1. I don't think you overreached. I can understand someone's urge to just talk to the guy, even respectfully, but anyone who would exhibit that behavior has a high likelihood of being unhinged.
2. I am an advocate for always having a gun in situations where the law is out of reach. Pros and cons of course, but it's not hard, nor pleasant, to imagine a situation where that guy crossed the line further and tried to impose his will on your group.
3. If you adhere to never pulling a gun unless you intend to use it, I don't think it would've affected the situation. Having a gun isn't a tool for threatening or coercing, it's the last resort. I do think folks who pack guns often sometimes allow their gun to cloud their decision making - which should always be geared toward deescalation even if that means retreat.
4. I can only speak to the public lands and county protection where I live, but much of the rural west is a law enforcement desert. I started a thread about it a couple years ago, and it was directed at public lands, but being on the VFD we know that there are chunks of our district where an issue with a response that requires law enforcement could take near an hour. If LEOs had to take a boat to a given location, and the threat was over, I could imagine them not wasting the resources as it would simply put them another hour out from the next call that is certainly coming. I don't think it is out of line for you to reach out to the sheriff of that neck of the woods to respectfully inquire about how that decision was made.

Sorry that happened. Hopefully it doesn't shade the way your family feels about getting out there.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Questions:
1. Did I overreach?
2. Should I go get a handgun (I don't have any)?
3. Would it have helped or hurt in the situation?
4. How big of a deal is it that the Sheriff never came?

1. Not really - seems like an odd situation.
2. Yes.
3. It can raise the stakes - but doesnt have to. Likely - same result and avoiding the situation is the correct answer. It would have certainly made for more comfort in the huddle if more people were armed.
4. Not suprising. Until theres a real and immenient threat - LE cant do a lot.

 

[Brittany Chukarman]

I would have got the boat registration numbers off the bow. That a hole needs dealt with.

 

[jryoung]

You had me at jet boat.

1. no
2. Only if you want one
3. Hurt, avoidance was the best measure
4. Hard to say, but if it's Chelan or Douglas County both failed miserable to investigate a child neglect claim over months, so wouldn't be shocking they are going to show up for something like that.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I would have got the boat registration numbers off the bow. That a hole needs dealt with.

Yep, get all info to ID him. Even calmly and tactfully ask him his name and address. Document the bad behavior with photos and videos as long as he continues to behave inappropriately. Ensure he sees what you are doing in response.

Provide narrative and all info to the sheriff and request to file a formal complaint. That is unacceptable behavior and can only be diminished by followup, responsible consequences, and news reports.

 

[Beignet]

I’m gonna make an unconstructive curmudgeon remark, but it always seems to be the crowd with extra motorized crap that ruin it for everyone else, innit?

Sorry you had that happen to you. Methinks you did the right thing by just extracting yourself, family, and friends from the situation.

 

[Irrelevant]

did he technically break any laws? that "target shooting" is obviously questionable at best.

You can't camp on the beach, no camping within 1/4 of a campground except within a designated spot, no fires on the beach, and not shooting within the same 1/4 of a campground.

But yeah, not really any major offense. I talked to a ranger later who was very adamant it was a 911 situation and if we felt threatened enough to leave, that's Assault IV, which is an arrestable offense. I did not fact-check either of those two claims.

 

[MTLabrador]

It sucks that happened and ruined a fun trip. I think just leaving is definitely the safest option, especially with your kids there.

To answer your questions:
1) Not at all. Keep your family safe above all else.
2) Absolutely yes. Like @Nameless Range I am a big believer in always having a firearm handy, you’re on your own if things get western. I can’t imagine going on a trip somewhere without a handgun.
3) I definitely wouldn’t have displayed a firearm or ever let him know that I had one, unless he started threatening you or your people with a weapon. Retreating and avoiding a confrontation is always the first and best option.
4) It’s hard to say, I’d be disappointed in that response if it were me, but you also never know what else they had going on at the time. Just goes to reinforce my answer to number 2. If it really goes down, you are on your own.

 

[Irrelevant]

I would have got the boat registration numbers off the bow. That a hole needs dealt with.

I tried, but either I got the number wrong, it was getting dark and he had a bit of a lip shading the top half of the #s, or he doesn't have it registered.

 

[ismith]

I’m gonna make an unconstructive curmudgeon remark, but it always seems to be the crowd with extra motorized crap that ruin it for everyone else, innit?

Sorry you had that happen to you. Methinks you did the right thing by just extracting yourself, family, and friends from the situation.

It’s the damn side-by-side and wake boat crowd. Had some side-by-side idiot doing donuts at a boat launch yesterday. I was waiting for gravel to hit my truck but luckily it never did.

 

[howl]

Y'all need to realize that the scope of government enforcement of once were societal norms has receded and will continue to do so. I carry a gun everywhere. I have a revolver in my pocket right now. I have not and do not intend to leave my property this day.

If someone was whizzing ricochets by my family he'd stop immediately.

 

[noharleyyet]

You did good...

 

[ismith]

Questions:
1. Did I overreact? No, trust your gut.
2. Should I go get a handgun (I don't have any)? Yes.
3. Would it have helped or hurt in the situation? Take a CCW course and you’ll know.
4. How big of a deal is it that the Sheriff never came? Probably the new norm.

 

[brymoore]

Picking a fight with a drunk guy with a gun never ends well.

 

[rjthehunter]

I typically have a handgun. Definitely would in this scenario.

If ricochets are going past my family, an approach to him would be imminent. You know what they say about an ounce of prevention. In this case, the prevention would've been telling the guy to knock it off and get the hell out of there. If he continues to shoot causing bullets to ricochet near my family, I would've made him stop. I'm not going to wait for someone to get shot to react. That's reckless endangerment.

In MN, there's 4 elements to a self-defense claim:
1. an absence of aggression or provocation
2. an actual and honest belief that imminent death or great bodily harm would result
3. a reasonable basis existed for this belief
4. an absence of reasonable means to retreat or otherwise avoid the physical conflict

I think you met those criteria. He showed up and started shooting without being provoked. (that satisfies 1, 2, and 3) You're at a boat in location. He's parked on the beach; presumably by your boat, which is your means of escape.


All that being said, what you did worked this time. Personally, I'd get my CCW. Who knows how stupid the next one will be.