South East Montana - Custer National Forest

[Point Creep]

Fun Fact #2, Quackillr, did you know that FWP can modify the "objective" status of an elk unit based on not the number of animals in the unit being over objective, but the distribution in the unit (read -- landowner complaints in the winter, damage hunts, and allowing the start of a "shoulder season" for a unit that is not even "over" objective.

 

[Point Creep]

Here's another, did you know that some FWP biologists adjust quotas (moose/sheep/goat) based on hunter success, or lack thereof?

 

[Doublecluck]

I found it...http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=76529

 

[BuzzH]

Another fun fact, a friend drew a goat tag in the Bitterroot a number of years ago...called the FWP biologist and asked about goats in the drainage he drew.

The biologist said, "talk to Duncan Gilchrist he knows more about the goats in there than I do"....maybe Duncan should have set the quota's too...and got the paycheck as well.

 

[BuzzH]

I found it...http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=76529

Check the 100 series units...they don't even fly most of it to observe elk anymore.

You know why? There's no use wasting fuel to look for elk that aren't there.

Know what hasn't changed? You guessed it...11 weeks of OTC elk hunting.

Yep, there's a plan there alright...to wipe out wildlife.

 

[Doublecluck]

Here is mule deer, is this data not accurate? Seems like region 7 was up from its 10 year average in 2016. This does not seem like a wipe out.. http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=78616

 

[Doublecluck]

Check the 100 series units...they don't even fly most of it to observe elk anymore.

You know why? There's no use wasting fuel to look for elk that aren't there.

Know what hasn't changed? You guessed it...11 weeks of OTC elk hunting.

Yep, there's a plan there alright...to wipe out wildlife.

Maybe they moved to region 7, where there used to not be any..

 

[BigHornRam]

Check the 100 series units...they don't even fly most of it to observe elk anymore.

You know why? There's no use wasting fuel to look for elk that aren't there.

Know what hasn't changed? You guessed it...11 weeks of OTC elk hunting.

Yep, there's a plan there alright...to wipe out wildlife.

How did that line go.....Wyoming - up on the roof with a rifle, muttering conspiracy theories about black helicopters. You are losing it dude!

 

[BuzzH]

Here is mule deer, is this data not accurate? Seems like region 7 was up from its 10 year average in 2016 http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=78616

Uh, ten year averages, based on the ten years you're looking at, don't show you trend data.

Find some population data from the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's....compare that to the data you're looking at from 2006-2015...you'll see a trend of steady decline.

Wow, 300,000ish mule deer in a state the size of Montana...that's unfortunate.

 

[BuzzH]

How did that line go.....Wyoming - up on the roof with a rifle, muttering conspiracy theories about black helicopters. You are losing it dude!

Paul, did you look at the data or talk to the region 1 bio? Or do you just enjoy humping legs?

Check out what the * means in the data....and the lack of "observing" elk. Areas that haven't been flown for 12 years?

Nothing unusual about that, lets just stick to the 11 week season and unlimited Resident elk tags.

Maybe nobody will notice...

 

[BigHornRam]

Check the 100 series units...they don't even fly most of it to observe elk anymore.

You know why? There's no use wasting fuel to look for elk that aren't there.

Know what hasn't changed? You guessed it...11 weeks of OTC elk hunting.

Yep, there's a plan there alright...to wipe out wildlife.

At the risk of hijacking this thread any further, Bruce S has some awesome vidio of when he flew the Cabinets.

 

[Doublecluck]

Uh, ten year averages, based on the ten years you're looking at, don't show you trend data.

Find some population data from the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's....compare that to the data you're looking at from 2006-2015...you'll see a trend of steady decline.

Wow, 300,000ish mule deer in a state the size of Montana...that's unfortunate.

Ya but my stupid guy logic leads me to believe that if the hunting seasons and regulations don't change, but the population in region 7 increases by 35,000 animals in one year, that some other factors might play in to it..

 

[BuzzH]

Ya but my stupid guy logic leads me to believe that if the hunting seasons and regulations don't change, but the population in region 7 increases by 35,000 animals in one year, that some other factors might play in to it..

I guess a good friend of mine is 100% correct about what's going on in Montana, until the dimmest bulb on the Christmas tree realizes what's happening, nothing will change...

The facts don't seem to matter...carry on.

 

[BigHornRam]

Listen to Buzz non residents. No elk or deer left in Montana. Wyoming is where you need to apply. It's great there.

 

[ewludwig]

Two things come to mind as I follow the last few pages:

1). A quote from Cool Hand Luke: "What we have here, is failure to communicate....."
2). Study data that looks at physician bed side manner and the correlation to the number of malpractice lawsuits. Bear with me.......the studies show doctors with great bed side manner and shitty performance treating patients get sued less than doctors with bad bed side manner and good performance successfully treating patients. Makes no logical sense if one only takes into acct clinical performance. Unfortunately, patients value how they are verbally treated as much or more than they value a positive surgical/clinical outcome.

Buzz knows his shit inside and does a tremendous amount to help our cause.... but his message is often lost because he insults anyone who dares disagree. I realize it's hard to persuade those who won't listen or don't present facts to back up their arguments. However, I promise that it is impossible to persuade someone if you go about it in the manner that Buzz sometimes does. I'm no expert by any means. However, I make my living convincing others to use my particular medical device over another......and I live very comfortably. I came to this site to learn....but some of you with the most wisdom make it very difficult to learn.

Ultimately, IMO what has been proven by Buzz and the OP is that none of what is occurring or will has anything to do with Randy or his promotion of SE MT. This thread should be redisgnated "The Incompetence of MT FWP"

 

[BuzzH]

Listen to Buzz non residents. No elk or deer left in Montana. Wyoming is where you need to apply. It's great there.

There's a reason why I've never rifle hunted elk, a single day, in a general unit in Wyoming, without having been able to shoot a legal elk...ever.

There's a reason why statewide elk success is 44% in Wyoming, and single digits in Montana. General WY units over 27% success, LQ areas hovering near 60% success rates, type 9 archery tags...25% success.

I know, its hard for Montana to fathom having to be required to manage under special regulation elk areas to have a minimum of 35 bulls per 100 cows post harvest...and having those LQ special designation areas range from 35-65 bulls per 100 cows post harvest. That's what allows a marginal elk hunter like me to see 57 bull elk in 3 morning of scouting, during an open season, on public land...and be back in town to have lunch with the wife at noon.

I know its completely unheard of in Montana, but biologists here are actually allowed to manage on OBSERVED elk, and not population estimates. I know this will blow your mind, but they adjust season length and/or permit numbers when bull-to-cow ratio's are under 18 per 100 post harvest in general units, and under 35 per 100 post harvest in areas under special regulations.

Nobody loses their shit when a herd is over-objective.

Hunters here don't need 11 weeks to kill elk either, most of the rifle bull hunting in general units is 7-15 days, in October.

Its called management Paul...something you, and the biologists in Montana, aren't aware of...I understand why you're so confused.

Oh, and its damn likely that Wyoming at this time, has more elk than Montana, and less available habitat.

 

[El Jason]

Right, but this is not population data, this just shows that hunters are not killing as many. its realtively short term as well.

This could just mean that a bunch of pricks bought up some private land and now the elk have sanctuary

I can assure you your hypothesis is not even close.

 

[El Jason]

Right, but we are talking about a animal that can have winterkill of up to 50%

They are also incredibly prolific and SHOULD rebound quickly from disease and/or winterkill. Unless they are routinely overharvested.

 

[El Jason]

Maybe they moved to region 7, where there used to not be any..

It's amazing how a species can expand its range rapidly when the harvest is limited by permit. I guarantee you if the elk were managed in Region 7 like they are in the Bitterroot there wouldn't be very damned many.

 

[El Jason]

Ya but my stupid guy logic leads me to believe that if the hunting seasons and regulations don't change, but the population in region 7 increases by 35,000 animals in one year, that some other factors might play in to it..

There is a very good reason wildlife biologists operate off of trend data and NOT year to year data. There are many different factors that could lead to a 35k count difference.