South East Montana - Custer National Forest

[antlerradar]

Quackrillr; You are both right and wrong. You are right that the deer have moved to refuge areas. The problem for most hunters is that most of those refuges are on private land. There is far more deer on private now than when I was first hunting. Far fewer in roadless places like Poker Jim Creek. Total deer numbers may be the same. The distribution is not.

During the rut that good 4 point is just as likely to be found close to a road as he is on a remote ridge. Back in the 80's and 90's I found good deer every year in the riding and hiking arias during the summer that where later taken by some lucky hunter driving down a road sipping a bud. Road hunting is still effective during the rut.
There are far fewer people living is SE MT now than in the 60's.

It is the good old days for elk. When I was young there was next to none.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Ok I am listening, can you point me to some long term population data that supports your argument?

MT FWP and useful data? the broken record/dead horse

 

[BuzzH]

Ok I am listening, can you point me to some long term population data that supports your argument?

And I am not saying fwp is doing a good job, I am saying they are doing what many state game agencies do. Create management plans that take in to account the interests of everyone as well as the game.

No problem...for the sake of argument I'll use the area I hunt frequently. Check these harvest stats...try to defend that they're managing elk right.

http://fwp.mt.gov/system/modules/go...2004&List3=EL_2015&List4=285&submitButton=PDF

You know what hasn't changed, the amount of days people are hunting, the 6 weeks of archery and 5 weeks of rifle...yet harvest has declined by 75% in the last 10 years. From 167 elk harvested in 2004 down to 47 ten years later.

Nothing needs to change...just keep the same seasons in place.

Maybe in another 10 years we can be down to killing 15-20 elk a year, in an area that is almost entirely public, with a State Game range within the border, and has some of the best available habitat in the Blackfoot drainage.

Don't ask questions though, the biologists and elected officials know what's best.

THIS, right here, is the exact reason why I felt guilty killing the last 3-4 elk I shot in this unit and why I wont likely ever kill another one there (even though I know I can). I was damaging the resource when I pulled the trigger, and that's the shittiest of shitty feelings.

I can also tell you that there aren't many people that know the elk or that area better than myself and my family. I don't know anyone else that has spent more time in there hunting than we have, at least none that are still alive. My immediate family has hunted this unit and a couple surrounding ones, since the 1940's.

I can continue on all day in just about any area of Western Montana with the same story...

BTW, when an agency hasn't adjusted a season in over 60 years, except lengthening it by a few days here and there, its pretty tough to say they have a "plan"...

 

[The Hedgehog]

I do not believe there's a state out there that treats it's wildlife as poorly as Montana, and no state that has it's potential for great hunting.

quackkiller, here's another perfect example. Eastern MT antelope, the absolute best antelope habitat in the state. The only data listed is harvest data vs. total overall quota, but it's right there on FWP's website.

https://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?269043-Montana-Antelope-area-701

 

[BuzzH]

Here you go, unit 202...same shit different unit.

http://fwp.mt.gov/system/modules/go...2004&List3=EL_2015&List4=202&submitButton=PDF

Unit 150...samey samey...

http://fwp.mt.gov/system/modules/go...2004&List3=EL_2015&List4=150&submitButton=PDF

Vore's magic

http://fwp.mt.gov/system/modules/go...2004&List3=EL_2015&List4=270&submitButton=PDF

I'll go on all day if you want...

 

[Doublecluck]

No problem...for the sake of argument I'll use the area I hunt frequently. Check these harvest stats...try to defend that they're managing elk right.

http://fwp.mt.gov/system/modules/go...2004&List3=EL_2015&List4=285&submitButton=PDF

You know what hasn't changed, the amount of days people are hunting, the 6 weeks of archery and 5 weeks of rifle...yet harvest has declined by 75% in the last 10 years. From 167 elk harvested in 2004 down to 47 ten years later.

Nothing needs to change...just keep the same seasons in place.

Maybe in another 10 years we can be down to killing 15-20 elk a year, in an area that is almost entirely public, with a State Game range within the border, and has some of the best available habitat in the Blackfoot drainage.

Don't ask questions though, the biologists and elected officials know what's best.

THIS, right here, is the exact reason why I felt guilty killing the last 3-4 elk I shot in this unit and why I wont likely ever kill another one there (even though I know I can). I was damaging the resource when I pulled the trigger, and that's the shittiest of shitty feelings.

I can also tell you that there aren't many people that know the elk or that area better than myself and my family. I don't know anyone else that has spent more time in there hunting than we have, at least none that are still alive. My immediate family has hunted this unit and a couple surrounding ones, since the 1940's.

I can continue on all day in just about any area of Western Montana with the same story...

BTW, when an agency hasn't adjusted a season in over 60 years, except lengthening it by a few days here and there, its pretty tough to say they have a "plan"...

Right, but this is not population data, this just shows that hunters are not killing as many. its realtively short term as well.

This could just mean that a bunch of pricks bought up some private land and now the elk have sanctuary

 

[Doublecluck]

I do not believe there's a state out there that treats it's wildlife as poorly as Montana, and no state that has it's potential for great hunting.

quackkiller, here's another perfect example. Eastern MT antelope, the absolute best antelope habitat in the state. The only data listed is harvest data vs. total overall quota, but it's right there on FWP's website.

https://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?269043-Montana-Antelope-area-701

Right, but we are talking about a animal that can have winterkill of up to 50%

 

[The Hedgehog]

huh?

 

[BuzzH]

Here's another real gem...check the deer in the same unit...WAFJ.

http://fwp.mt.gov/system/modules/go...2004&List3=DE_2015&List4=285&submitButton=PDF

Check the mule deer harvest...in 2004, after 15 years of continual decline...154 killed....ten years later, down to 60. BTW, I seriously doubt there has been 60 mule deer killed in this unit in any of the last 5 years. Their harvest models are a complete f-ing joke. I know what I see when I hunt there, and I have not seen a mule deer in the, spot on the spot, that I hunt in 9 years. I used to see 15-25 a day prior to 2005-2006. I can show you my journal entries from the 1980's clear through last year...and you can see the constant decline in mule deer numbers from my journals the entire time. Elk and whitetail you can see the rise, peak, and crash in the last 10-12 years as well.

Yet, everything must be good, we still have 6 weeks or archery, 5 weeks of rifle, during the rut, with OTC general tags for mule deer.

The MTFWP doesn't manage, and any game killed in Montana is not because of the MTFWP, its in SPITE of the MTFWP...that's just a fact.

 

[BuzzH]

Right, but this is not population data, this just shows that hunters are not killing as many. its realtively short term as well.

This could just mean that a bunch of pricks bought up some private land and now the elk have sanctuary

There's essentially no private in the unit I spend the most time in...are you really that dense or just looking to be "right"? Matter of fact, I cant recall seeing an elk on private land there ever...

Believe what you want...I cant do more than present the facts.

I pray to God you're intentionally being obtuse...and you're really being this dumb on purpose.

 

[The Hedgehog]

My guess is there's a few people here that have 4yr degrees in science/biology, and a few that do not.

Not that one is required to recognize complete and utter stupidity.

 

[Doublecluck]

There's essentially no private in the unit I spend the most time in...are you really that dense or just looking to be "right"? Matter of fact, I cant recall seeing an elk on private land there ever...

Believe what you want...I cant do more than present the facts.

I am not interested in being right, honestly I can't find any reliable data that makes sense on the subject anywhere. You seem like a really smart guy very passionate about the subject. That said I have been exposed to a lot of "the sky is falling" hunters in my time. And the sky never fell..

 

[The Hedgehog]

Fun fact: It's called the tsar bomba.

 

[FAIR CHASE]

What is ........ "cabin fever" Alex.

 

[BuzzH]

I am not interested in being right, honestly I can't find any reliable data that makes sense on the subject anywhere. You seem like a really smart guy very passionate about the subject. That said I have been exposed to a lot of "the sky is falling" hunters in my time. And the sky never fell..

One last time...because I just want to make sure I'm not missing something.

In 2004, 11,438 days spent by hunters hunting elk in my spot...resulted in 167 elk being killed.

In 2015, 11,999 days spent by hunters hunting elk in my spot....resulted in 47 elk being killed.

What can we conclude from this data?

I have a hard time, any way I slice it, that this data would suggest, there are more, or even the same, number of elk in the unit I hunt NOW than 10 years ago. Last I checked, when elk numbers stay the same, or increase, and the number of hunters stays the same (or in this case increases) usually hunter success doesn't decline by 75%...but hey, that's just what I "think".

How would you explain a 75% decrease in harvest as "no big deal", in particular across large areas of Western Montana...not cherry picking a single unit?

I tell you what, I can see how the FWP gets away with their data...I guess when maybe there's 5 elk left in the State, maybe then the light bulb will go on.

I don't know what to say anymore...increased pressure, less elk, and seasons that don't change, OTC tags for elk and deer, resulting in a downward trend the last 10+years, for a total of 75% reduction in harvest, and that's sustainable and a good plan I guess.

That's what YOU'RE trying to tell me?

Sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

 

[npaden]

It's the super aggressive genetically modified wooofs I tell ya!!!

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

282 right next door to your spot, is limited to basically bow season. Why don't you hunt there and give your spot a rest. FWP isn't making you hunt 285. Lots of rugged country east of Seeley in 285. Might find some mule deer there.

 

[Doublecluck]

One last time...because I just want to make sure I'm not missing something.

In 2004, 11,438 days spent by hunters hunting elk in my spot...resulted in 167 elk being killed.

In 2015, 11,999 days spent by hunters hunting elk in my spot....resulted in 47 elk being killed.

What can we conclude from this data?

I have a hard time, any way I slice it, that this data would suggest, there are more, or even the same, number of elk in the unit I hunt NOW than 10 years ago. Last I checked, when elk numbers stay the same, or increase, and the number of hunters stays the same (or in this case increases) usually hunter success doesn't decline by 75%...but hey, that's just what I "think".

How would you explain a 75% decrease in harvest as "no big deal", in particular across large areas of Western Montana...not cherry picking a single unit?

I tell you what, I can see how the FWP gets away with their data...I guess when maybe there's 5 elk left in the State, maybe then the light bulb will go on.

I don't know what to say anymore...increased pressure, less elk, and seasons that don't change, OTC tags for elk and deer, resulting in a downward trend the last 10+years, for a total of 75% reduction in harvest, and that's sustainable and a good plan I guess.

That's what YOU'RE trying to tell me?

Sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

Ok, sorry I misunderstood, I thought that game agencies created management plans with long term objectives to sustain populations of multiple species based on environmental impacts and the interests of the public. Hunting being just a part of that equation. As I understand it the conclusions that most have here are based on hunter sucess. Does anyone here know where one could find the population objectives of fwp on deer,elk,lope. Are they not changing hunting regulations when surveyed populations fall below the objectives? If so I would happily go with buzz to the witch burning party.

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz,

282 right next door to your spot, is limited to basically bow season. Why don't you hunt there and give your spot a rest. FWP isn't making you hunt 285. Lots of rugged country east of Seeley in 285. Might find some mule deer there.

I do the right thing, that the FWP wont, and don't hunt elk at all in there anymore, even better, I don't even hunt elk anywhere else in Montana and just move the problem somewhere else. I have no desire to kill the last elk in Montana.

The last 2 mule deer I killed there (both bucks) were in 1986 and 1987. Even as a stupid kid then, I knew it was probably wrong to shoot them as we'd been pleading with Bob Henderson, the FWP biologist, to stop allowing a week of killing mule deer does with A-tags. In the late 70's and early 80's seeing 60-70 mule deer a day was no big whoop. By the late 80's, it was down to maybe seeing 50-60 a season, if that.

Where I killed those 2 bucks, I haven't seen a mule deer in 9 years, never thought it would come to this, but its where we're at.

Unlimited OTC tags and 11 weeks comes at a steep price.

 

[tjones]

. Are they not changing hunting regulations when surveyed populations fall below the objectives? .

No


And you are a bit late to the party.

FWP flight surveyed numbers, MT EMP, Debbie Barrett's HB42, all required reading before posting.

Google is your friend.