Shoulder Seasons during Archery...

[airlocksniffer]

Watched the stream. Good points brought up about the speed at which this is taking place (the name of the person escapes me). Finalizing 44 more HD's before the data comes in on the pilot is just silly. Also saw my old high school government teacher (Rep Willis Curdy).

 

[Ben Lamb]

So how did it go?

Confusing. As usual. It wasn't a big, fiery presentation, but just an update on where they are, with Rep. White asking why FWP wasn't going after elk in all 80 distructs that are over "objective."

 

[----]

Randy, under the "Background" links there were a couple that discussed bull harvest during the shoulder, but permit would be required.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/seasons/elkShoulder.html

I don't remember which ones specifically, but open them and word search "bull". If you have new info, I would be interested.

The only thing that I could find was this link, and it's in regards to the pilot seasons only- http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/headlines/nr_4253.html

They also discussed it at the November Commission Meeting, but that hasn't been transcribed yet. It also was likely only in regards to this winters hunts.

I think you're right, that they're leaving the door wide open for them, even if they aren't in the public proposals.

 

[mtmiller]

Watched the stream. Good points brought up about the speed at which this is taking place (the name of the person escapes me). Finalizing 44 more HD's before the data comes in on the pilot is just silly. Also saw my old high school government teacher (Rep Willis Curdy).

I missed the name as well, but he was representing MWF. Same comments Lamb and Hockett had last month IIRC. Great points and they will also be included in my letter.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Watched the stream. Good points brought up about the speed at which this is taking place (the name of the person escapes me). Finalizing 44 more HD's before the data comes in on the pilot is just silly. Also saw my old high school government teacher (Rep Willis Curdy).

Thanks, ALS - Rep. Curdy is a bright spot on that committee. Great guy.

 

[Straight Arrow]

The huge volume of phone inquiries which have overwhelmed the phone system related to shoulder seasons has been brought up frequently. There was also mention of "all hands on deck", meaning a real increase in workload for FWP and those working the shoulder seasons. Although the hunters interested in participating will be spread over many more areas, still the workload may potentially ramp up by a factor of ten with all 44 shoulder season areas requiring additional workload.

I still think this proposal is being pushed to implementation way too fast and without due diligence in analyzing potential problems and adverse consequences.

 

[katqanna]

Just got back from the Conrad meeting. There were some seriously frustrated hunters opposing the Mule Deer changes to either sex, saying they are seeing hardly any mulies on the ground as it is, taking the breeders is not going to help the population increase from a decline. The FWP biologist disagreed, repeatedly. I showed them the statewide statistics from 2005-2015, showing the declining trend except in Region 7. Yet all Regions, except 1, are moving to either sex.

I asked Lonner, why FWP was pursuing 44 additional pilot projects when they had not assessed and made the results available to the public from the 4 that were in Region 4? He said Loecker and another are going through the data now. I asked if it was going to be ready before the Jan 22nd comment deadline, he did not know. Commissioner Stuker was in the back. The main biologist told people to send in their comments to FWP and take advantage that Commissioner Stuker was in the back of the room to let him know what they thought.

Dont know how helpful that was when I feel this is being railroaded and it is only a facade of a public process.

 

[mtmiller]

Stuker was in Havre last night. I have a lot of respect for him.

 

[8andcounting]

Seems to me like the Fwp can't organize a 1 car parade right now .....

 

[katqanna]

I meant this whole public comment process that has been going on since June.

As I told them, I have requested, before and after the Oct. 3rd commission meeting, the public comments submitted for that commission meeting, even offered that they could put the folder on the Montana access, that I have an account, real easy for them, but by the time I came up here in mid December, Helena had still not sent me the comments. I recently requested certain comments from the commission secretary, on the 10th of Dec. I have not received those either. they were all compiled to provide them to the commissioners, how hard can it be to get the folder to me electronically?

Looks like I am going to have to make an official public information request through an attorney.

 

[bigskyblueman]

As per my phone conversation with my Commissioner, nothing looms on the horizon to stop the bulk of this from being implemented.

 

[BuzzH]

As per my phone conversation with my Commissioner, nothing looms on the horizon to stop the bulk of this from being implemented.

Shocking...

But, be sure to get those comments in.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Shocking...

But, be sure to get those comments in.

My thoughts as well.

 

[airlocksniffer]

Was looking for a link about the report handed to the committee yesterday but found this story regarding access to landlocked public land, which I think is another reason we have so many HD's over objective according the EMP:

http://www.hcn.org/issues/47.2/this-land-is-their-land

 

[JoeSchmo]

As per my phone conversation with my Commissioner, nothing looms on the horizon to stop the bulk of this from being implemented.

Seriously... WTF??? Then why do Sportsmen groups and sportsmen (like Big Fin) have such positive outlooks that a lot of it won't go through?

 

[BrowningBLR]

Rifle cow hunting in August and/or September will also affect MSG along with draw bull elk/deer permits. As everyone knows, animals change once bullets start flying. Should be fun.

 

[BuzzH]

Seriously... WTF??? Then why do Sportsmen groups and sportsmen (like Big Fin) have such positive outlooks that a lot of it won't go through?

When the Legislature, Governor, or MFWP want something they're going to get it despite public comments.

Many, many examples of this happening.

The last few that I've been upset about are elk B-tags, OTC deer B-tags in region 2, and these shoulder seasons.

In the case of the elk B-tags, there was essentially NO support from anyone outside the department that wanted those. I saw the results of the comments received, over-whelming opposition. A good friend of mine was told, by a FWP employee, that the decision was made to create elk B-tags and that public comments were nothing more than a formality.

The OTC deer B-tags in region 2, there was a lot of opposition, in particular the last 2 years. The Biologist for the area(s) I hunt, begged his Supervisors to close it down, but was told, "one more year wont hurt". Several years later, the deer hunting is maybe 55-60% of what it was prior to the doe slaughter.

When a Department and Commission are ignoring their OWN biologists, its pretty unrealistic to believe that the average Sportsmen/women in Montana are going to be considered.

It has to change, but at the present time, there is nothing to indicate to me that it will, EVER. The Department, Commission, Legislature, and hunters in Montana are totally out of control...and the wildlife is the only thing that is suffering.

Such a shame...as again, the potential Montana has is staggering.

 

[BuzzH]

Rifle cow hunting in August and/or September will also affect MSG along with draw bull elk/deer permits. As everyone knows, animals change once bullets start flying. Should be fun.

Yeah, but has anyone considered what the impacts will be to the wildlife itself?

Therein lies the problem...Everyone is worried how its going to impact THEIR seasons, the other tags they draw, etc.

The big, dead, bloated, elk in the room that everyone is ignoring, is how its going to impact the future elk populations, NAM, the image of hunting to the non-hunting public, etc.

I could give a rip about archers, other permit holders, etc. They've always looked out for themselves first, at the expense of all others, as well as the over-all health of the herds.

Priorities are in the crapper....on this and many other issues.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Seriously... WTF??? Then why do Sportsmen groups and sportsmen (like Big Fin) have such positive outlooks that a lot of it won't go through?

You have to look at the history of how this situation evolved.

FWP has been in a long standing staredown with landowners over elk numbers. This goes back to the late 90's early 2000s. There used to be a number of late season cow hunts that occurred on private lands. Yet, many of these same private lands were closed to the general public during the general season because the lands were leased to outfitters to kill bulls.

Early 2000s, these late hunts were abolished and landowners were told they would have to allow reasonable public access to qualify for a late season damage hunt. This is the same time frame that the EMP was finalized, and then after that Senator Barrett got SB 42 passed. This mandated that FWP manage AT OR BELOW the objectives in the EMP.

So now, FWP is legally mandated to get elk numbers down. Landowners say, let us kill more elk. FWP says, let the public have access and we'll kill more elk but give the public access to bulls too. Neither side wants to budge. It's a stalemate of neither side wanting to budge. FWP is now going on 10 years of not complying with SB 42 in many districts. Who do you really think is driving this? Somebody was told they had to make the first concession and it sure wasn't the landowners who were forced to make the first move.

I can pretty much assure you that Director Hagener got marching orders from the Capitol Building to make shit happen one way or another, or we'll do it for you. Hagener is a smart guy and did a lot of good for the department during his first tenure. I think he could too during this tenure if he was given a different political climate.

I fear that when it's all said and done, there will likely be more public access to private lands, but there will be far fewer elk to hunt.

FWP has some tremendously bright minds within their ranks. Unfortunately, they are not allowed to manage unencumbered by politics.

 

[BrowningBLR]

Yeah, but has anyone considered what the impacts will be to the wildlife itself?

Therein lies the problem...Everyone is worried how its going to impact THEIR seasons, the other tags they draw, etc.

The big, dead, bloated, elk in the room that everyone is ignoring, is how its going to impact the future elk populations, NAM, the image of hunting to the non-hunting public, etc.

I could give a rip about archers, other permit holders, etc. They've always looked out for themselves first, at the expense of all others, as well as the over-all health of the herds.

Priorities are in the crapper....on this and many other issues.

I completely agree, Buzz!! I was just stating another thing most hunters overlooked. It will affect every tag/permit even the 'special tags'. But more importantly, like you pointed out, it will drastically impact elk and wildlife as a whole...

Shooting cow elk in early August - leaving unweened calves, 2 for 1 deal.
Shooting cow elk in late February - partially formed fetuses, 2 for 1, again.
Rifle shots during the ENTIRE pre-rut, rut, and post-rut - obviously impacting stress and mating habits, location, pattern.

Not to mention the environmental stress and impact of all other animals and everything else in the forest of having hunters out there for 7 months out of the year.