AMK Sportsman

Registered or Not, what do you think??

Thumper

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Dec 15, 2000
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339
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Aksai, Kazakhstan via Covington Louisiana
I was reading a few posts and I wanted to ask what your opinion is on this topic without starting a bar brawl :eek:

As many of you know, I used to hunt competition. Not to sound like a braggard, but I have handled, trained and owned NT.and GR. NT. Champion coon hounds, placed high in more than a few fox hunts and puppy hunts, not to mention the bench shows I did in my teens! I loved breeding up, selling and racking up trophies and a bit of cash back then! It was fun for a young man who loved the trophies :D

Unfortunately,in most all cases,you need hounds that are registered to enter a nite hunt or field trial!

However, I have personally found X's to be easier to start and break! I even have to admit that my best hound, that would hunt circles around some of my former CHAMPIONS were 1/2 this and 1/4 that and so on!
Now that I have grown out of collecting trophies, as most are in my mothers attic, I just enjoy the race!
I honestly think that I would take a cross from a proven pair of hounds over a registered hound with papers from a pair of bred back registered champions!

My reason is simple! They just seem easier to break the way you want and do not seem to come with as many bad habits to break out!

Whats your thoughts?
Best wishes and think about me stuck here in Asia the next time you tree one :D
Thumper
 

TriggMan

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Apr 29, 2001
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15
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IL
The dogs papers are only as good as the man. There have been alot of dogs registered dogs that the sire and dame never got close to each other.:mad: The ONLY difference between grade dogs and registered dogs is someone took the time energy to fill out the paperwork and send in the cash.
 

Thumper

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Dec 15, 2000
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339
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Aksai, Kazakhstan via Covington Louisiana
You are right! I know of 2 true stories that will make ya sick.
The first was a Champion Walker hound with papers that just looked to be pure English! Come to find out years later he was a X'hound with papers from another hound! He was actually English & Redbone/English cross! This hound was even listed in Full Cry with a $300 stud fee and pups at $400 !!!!

It was the odd one out in the litter that took its mothers traits and was indeed a great hound! However to do this, just to get it into competition was wrong! And to charge $300 for stud fee was fraud!

I actually think that the concept of having to have a registered pure blood hound to enter a competition is wrong!

From judging and guiding casts that placed high in the Grand American and a few other Hunts, I know of a lot of X's tied up in a few old rednecks back yard that would have stole those and a few other shows when it came to the hunt! And some of these X hounds looked like they were picked up at the landfill!

To make things even ulglier and tell how far some folks will stoop, read this!

I was with my uncle when he bought a bluetick for $5000 in the 80's at a hunt in North Carolina that was supposed to be 4 years old and from a long line of "champions" with 20 generation papers!

The hound only need a few points to become a Nt. Champion when he was bought and placed high in the North Carolina hunt!
Now he was indeed a "great dog" and made Gr. Nt. Champion for my uncle.

He had a bad habit of chewing at the tree! A great explanation to why his teeth were worn!

The hound died 2 years later during a hunt and very unexpectedly :confused:
The Vet checked the hound out for insurance purposes for cause of death of a supposed 6 year old hound!

Come to find out, the dog was not 6 but 9 and died of heart failure! Again another case of false papers! After a lot of red tape, the brother of the former owner, confessed that the bluetick his brother sold to my uncle was bought at a hunt for $800 !
The hound that actually had earned the points and held the papers, (another blue dog) had been killed by a car a year prior.

So they continued to hunt the $800 blue dog in hunts with the dead hounds papers!

If I was still into the "competition thing" I would fight tooth and nail against registered, full bloods only in the hunts!

Sometimes indeed the hound is better than the owner! Good call!

Mark Thumper Boykin
 

Mountain Boomer

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Dec 10, 2000
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336
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Arkansas
I like to have a registered hound. I know there is allot of rigistered dogs out there w/ false papers but, I only keep a couple of hounds. I don't raise any unless I need a new one. When I raise a litter I like to be able to sell them. Papers may not tree or run anything, but they sure make it easier to sell the pups and older hounds. I am going to raise a litter out of my old gyp this year. I already have 5 pups spoken for and she was just bred this week. I don't think any of these people would have wanted one of the pups if they weren't going to have papers.
 

josh

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Dec 20, 2000
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MN
Mt. Boomer brings up a good point, I doubt I could get rid of a litter of pups if they werent papered.

I dont competition hunt but my dogs are all registered, I have had X-breds that were as good as regestered dogs but what do you breed to next?

I believe competition hunting is breeding more and more dogs to run only a hot track and ignore a colder one...........Thus the reason for walkers dominating competition hunts.
 

engman99

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Dec 19, 2000
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131
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Sulphur,IN U.S.A.
I think papers are a good thing as far as breeding goes,but then again I am a serious breeder of English Coonhounds.I have had my share of grade dogs that would tree coons.I dont think they were any better than my registered dogs.I usually keep an unregistered beagle or two around for rabbit hunting.
Josh,you said that you thought comp. hunters were breeding hotter nosed dogs,and you are right.The people who are doing that are also realizing their mistake,and are starting to breed some nose back into their hounds.I dont think that is why Walkers dominate the hunts though.Walkers dominate the hunts because they outnumber the other breeds about 10 to 1.
Papers let you know what crosses worked well in the past so you have an idea what to breed to in the future.
 

TriggMan

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Apr 29, 2001
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IL
As far a breeding hot nose treeing dogs go the same (different) thing is going on in the running hound arena. Alot of field trail folks want a heads up, speed and drive dog. These dogs could find game on the outside to save their owner from staving. These guys want to do away with the hunting, trailing scoring cause their dogs don't shine. They would blow by a cold track or a the game 25 yards away. Breed for well rounded hound and we will all be better off.
 

Thumper

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Dec 15, 2000
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Aksai, Kazakhstan via Covington Louisiana
Very valid points made by all! I have sold hounds without papers that came from a long line of proven x hounds. I have to admit that they would not fetch the money that a registered hound pup from the same caliber of hounds would have, but broke out easier and made as good if not better hounds.

On the other side of the coin is some registered pups out of good stock that I have sold for top dollar did not make the grade!
why?
Papers do not make a hound! Proper training, time in the woods and the handler make the dog! Yes, bloodlines do play a role, but I honestly think that how the hound is trained is what makes him!
I do agree that papers will give ya an idea of what has worked in the past, but lets face it. This is not always the case.

Walkers do dominate field trials for fox hunts! Why??? Well, I would reckon walkers are known for being fast and have the ability to keep on going when other decide to call it a day.I wish I had back the time and money spent from looking for and driving to pick up walkers 30 miles from where I dumped them 3 days before

Correct me if I am wrong, as I have been out of the nite hunts for coon for a while. From what I have witnessed, nite hunts were a mixture of Walkers,blues, reds, black and tans along with the odd cur or plott!
Maybe this has changed. I recall judging a cast of 4 hounds of different breeds on more than one occasion. Some hunts the walkers would steal the show in areas with lots of coon! Than again I have saw the cold nose blue or black dogs take the show by getting first strike points on cold trails and working it out. Judging a cast can be a funny thing!

Something that is sorta funny about fox hounds, is to see some of them hunt outside of the pens!
Dump them out and the entire pack hits the road running, trying to locate a feeder :eek:

Due to my love to run year around,I would run my walkers in the fox pens during the off season and then on deer in the winter. Because they were used to hitting the roads in the fox pens, I would normally have to drive a ways away from any road to drop them out. If not every stander would cuss me for weeks. I would hear, yep, I saw all of your hounds, #'s 101 - 109, they blew past me running down the road and past all the other standers :eek:
Now that I am out of running deer with hounds, I just wish for a good cold nose, loud trail and hard chop tree dog! :cool:

I can promise ya fellers that when I come back to the States for good, I will get a pack back! For now I do love to discuss the topics and share opinions without getting into a ruckus.
Thumper
 

GatoMan

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Jan 8, 2001
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IDAHO
Nothing wrong with neither, I have both, prefer registered dogs though easier to follow the lines that way. Theres hot and cold nosed dogs in every breed, you have to find a strain of dogs you like to hunt and stay with them, another reason reg dogs are nicer, you can get breeders books etc, locate people with same line of blood you have, helps you make better crosses etc, like if you linebreed. Hopefully in another yr I will be making a Aunt-nephew linebreed cross...with papers its easier to keep track of how your breeding etc is headed, never have had a grade dog, cross bred dog or anything handle or break any easier then a reg dog., find a line of dogs that suit your needs and stay with them
 

CATMAN

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Feb 17, 2001
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Talmage, Utah
I think it all depends on the line of dogs. There are still some registered dogs out there that will cold trail and tree game with the best of them. On the other hand my best dogs are grade dogs. I am working on trying to get a walker pack together that are all registered out of some old blood. But I will always keep a grade dog or two around here because of the strain of grade dogs I hunt.
 

George P

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Jan 11, 2001
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rochester N.H. usa
I agree with Gato and Catman.There are plenty of good and bad in both.If every thing else was equal I too would prefer a registered dog.I have some of both now.I like reg dogs better for a couple reasons.One is tracking their age.Awful hard to tell the difference between a 5 and a 7 yr old grade dog.Ihave talked to several top top vets and they have assured me there is no diffinitive way to tell a dogs age.As far as switching papers,yes it can happen.I have seen it myself.I dont believe it is real wide spread though.The DNA tests that accompany many dogs now stops any wrong doing with papers.I think this will become more common in the future.I have my first DNA ed dog here now.
The other thing I like about reg dogs is being able to see a record of of past dogs that I know where hunted.I can then track a particular trait.In my case I like to see a line of big game type dogs.Cold noses and ,speed and enduerance.
I still have several grade dogs and probably always will.If you could show me a german shepard with a bawl mouth,cold nose and a hard tree dog I would probably own him too.!!! When it comes to buying a broke dog the dogs ability is what I am concerned with,not where he came from.
 
B

bcat

Guest
Nothing really to interject here except my opinion, and like it has already been said, there are god and bad in both Registered and Grade dogs. My best dogs arent registered...I have never had any trouble selling grade dogs in this area. Not as many competition hunts here, but alot of lion hunters. Papers dont mean much to me. Its all in what a guy has in mind for his dogs I reckon. bcat
 

Wolfer

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Jan 15, 2001
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86
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Wy
I look at it this way... if the dog will run a track and hold a tree with out chasing off game then it doesnt matter about papers..it all boils down to the fact that A good dog will do what ya want it to..If I need Pups and one of my good females comes in then I breed her to a proven dog. There are to many Dog Jockeys out there trien to make a buck.
 
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