Question about Union's

[bennett454]

Hey guys,
So im at a point in my life where all of my friends seem to have good paying jobs and are starting to really get somewhere in life. I however just graduated college with a bachlors in Biology have been applying like crazy for wildlife jobs but realized best case scenerio I won't land anything good until I gain good amount of experience and a Masters (probably 5yrs). Second realization My father owns a HVAC company but it is very small the biggest I've seen it was about 5 guys and he is up and down alot with work. I have been around sheet metal working for 10 yrs with about 5yrs actually being more then just an extra hand. Sense I can't rely on my dads business I started looking into Unions. Do Union companys lay off more then other companys? Do they get less work then Non unions basically I want to know the downside of unions from someone in the know. My dad hates unions so I didn't want to ask him.

Thanks Guys

 

[the nikster]

I am not a member of a union. I have worked with union employees all over the country and in several others. My opinion is that union employees do better work but less of it. Open shop employees do more work but quality almost always runs below union levels.
When I call the hall for help I seldom get 'the best'. Quality employees are soon hired on full time by local companies while the hall remains full of 'less desirables'. I would love some of the benefits but prefer to not deal with the system personally. Volume of work is very geo-oriented.

 

[mixedbag]

In my part of the country, the union guys spend more time picketing jobs then working them.You'll get more an hr. but work ALOT less unless your in certain trades.Find a non-union shop that bids on scale jobs and you'll do the best.My best friends company does that and his employees never complain making over 100k a year building schools and such.If you do, then your put on non-rate jobs paying a 1/3 of the money.Unions are real big in the cities,not so much outside of them
I'm not a big fan of union construction guys.They seem to cry alot about doing their job.thats just what I've seen in this area.I'm sure they're doing good in other areas

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

Why would you put yourself at the mercy of what a Union tells you that you can do and who to do it for? You open your question on where you want to go with your life, but then you say you think Union might be the way to go? Be your own man, like your Dad. John

 

[emrah1028]

The free market is about having the opportunity to determine your own destiny. To work harder than the next guy. Be more efficient than the next guy. Put out a better produt than the next guy. Rise above the next guy.

EVERYTHING about unions is exactly opposite of this. Do the least amount of work, for the most amount of money - WELL ABOVE what the free market would EVER bear if it weren't for chrony-ism, favorite-ism and political paybacks.

Yeah, that's about the nicest, most tongue-biting thing I can say about unions on a PG-rated forum.

Emrah

 

[hardscrabble]

I was a member of sheet metal workers local 10 for fourteen years and just in October I took another position at my company which required me to drop out. I have never been more happy. Unions had thier place in this country but not any more.

I would agree that the non-union shops in our area do a larger volume of work but the quality is not there. I don't agree with calling all union workers "lazy" that is not true in all cases. I do believe in certain trades and areas of the country that is true but not in ND.

The benifits package for union pay is good but on the down side the pensions are taking a hit due in part to membership decline. The total package has alot of grey area benefits that you have no clue where that money is going or being used for. That alway pissed me off.

To sum it up personally I would stay out of the union, I think they are going in the wrong direction now days.

 

[6speed]

Just out of curiosity, where have you been looking for jobs in biology?

 

[BuzzH]

Beings how I'm VP of my local...I'll be the guy to give you the "other side" of the story.

First off, the main reason that many trade employees in non-union shops make good money is because the Unions still exist. If non-union shops dont compete salary wise, benefits wise, etc. with union shops, they wouldnt have anyone to work for them.

Also, the bullchit about the pensions being "grey" in Unions...thats not true. Typically union pensions, benefits, and insurance are much more secure than any controlled by a company. Ask the blue-collar guys at Enron how secure their company pension were, they lost it all. Its pretty typical for any company to dissolve their pension plans to benefit the company when the "shit hits the fan". I know many, many hard working employees in my home town that would have lost their pensions, and asses, when timber companies folded up. My Dad would have been screwed if his 27 year pension would have been company controlled when the company folded their tent. They managed to weasel out of paying any severence pay and tried to weasel out of paying vacation time that was due employees when they folded. The contract language, negotiated by the Union saved at least their unpaid vacation time. Also, thanks to the Union, and Union controlled pension, he's enjoying a nice retirement for making his company an ass-pile of money for 27 years.

Companies are quick to share the hard times and pretty slow in sharing the good times.

I also contend that unions are still necessary to maintain some level of fairness and equity amoung workers. Not to slam the trades, but most of the workforce is not capable of negotiating contracts, salary, benefits, etc. on an individual level. Companies hire professionals to "negotiate" those things with employees/Unions, or in the case of non-union shops...largely do what they want. Its pretty tough for an individual to negotiate many of those things on a level playing field without union representation.

I dont think the role of any Union should be to take all they can, only ensure that the workplace is safe, equitable, and that employees are not taken advantage of.

I'm a firm believer in Unions and the representation they provide to the workforce.

As to the "political" end of Unions, I find it no more troubling that they lobby than I do a company doing the EXACT same thing. Never could understand why many find it perfectly acceptable for a company to lobby congress to benefit their company, but find it wrong that a Union lobbies on behalf of the working man to benefit the workforce???

Makes no sense.

When companies stop lobbying, it would also make sense for it to stop on the Union side as well. Until then, bite me...fair is fair.

 

[the nikster]

Dang Buzz!
You didn't state a single point I can feel good about arguing.

 

[bennett454]

The picketing is what worries me the most I dont want to be laid off or constantly going on strikes I just want to make a decent steady living. Since Unions pay more do they tend to lose out on jobs more effectivly causing employees to be laid off? I feel like alot of Unions tend to get bigger jobs is this true. For example the larger jobs I do for my dad typically run 3-4 months we don't get the hospitals or schools that last two years but we're a small company, I'm not sure but it feels like we bid against alot more companies then what a larger company would have to contend with. As far as benefits my wife's a nurse so she has excellent benefits for the both of us. Somebody asked where Im looking for Bio jobs mostly Texas A&M website and USA jobs I also periodically check on orginizations like Pheasents forever, RMEF, etc... And John as for being my own boss I've been around my dad to long to see the stresses to being your own boss and i'd rather stay away from running his company running a job or two no problem but being in charge of everything is not for me.

 

[bennett454]

Oh yea and right now I think the best route is trying for a Government sheet metal job I know of one in my local area but its a grade 11 so I'm probably a little underqualified but that type of work would be more reliable in my opinion then any construction sites. And Whether Union or non-union i'm going to do the same type of work. I've been around a perfectionist to long not too

 

[Blacktailbc]

+1 Buzz

Companies are quick to share the hard times and pretty slow in sharing the good times

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

A hunting forum probably isn't the best place to get advice regarding unions but Buzz did an excellent job. I would recommend using a search engine for some HVAC forums and ask your questions there. I use them myself and usually most boards have a section on their forum just for union talk.If you're looking for the facts go straight to the source.

I went from a non union company to union and its the best decision I've ever made in my life. Don't let people like mixbag, draftstud etc tell you myths. lies etc. I heard the same thing as a non union hand. Union guys stand around. Bullshit. I've yet to be a job where guys are standing around. Draftstud says the union controls you. I think it is quite opposite of that. I could elaborate on this one all day but I have things to do.

Mixbag says to find a non union company that does scale jobs and work for them. Who sets the scale mixbag? Yup thats right the union. Why not make scale even when you are not on a "scale job"? Like buzz says the union sets the rates. Non union companies get tired of losing their workers to the union so they are forced to pay more if they want to keep their quality hands. An example is the local I'm in a union commercial/industrial journeyman makes 40/hour. A non union comm/ind journeyman makes around 35/hr. Now our local stopped doing residential work (new construction) in the 70's because of the oil boom. So guess whats a residential guy makes? 18/hr because the owners of the non union shops can get away with that. Someone would argue and say its because residential is easier. But go look at other locals that do residential. The rate is higher. So non union guys should thank the union for keep the wage where its at

I think now more than ever we need unions. Companies are slashing benefits etc because of the economy. They have the workers by the nuts knowing that people are worried about finding other jobs. Yet exec's to all these companies are getting millions and millions of dollars in bonuses.

Unions want a decent wage for a days work. What is wrong with that?

A good worker in the union never has to worry about work. There may be some down time between jobs but because you are paid a fair wage you can make it to the next job. I've never had any down time, sometimes I would I would around hunting season.....

Good luck on your decision.

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

Or you could be like all the whiners and go sit at wallstreet wanting a handout.....

 

[bennett454]

Wyodeerhunter thats what got me thinking about unions I was on a job site the other day and a guy mentioned a union worker that had been union for 19yrs and never been laid off. I wish I could say I've never been laid off but it seems like clockwork anymore I can remember the best day were right before this economic downturn where we had good work for five straight years. Thats not that long nor is that good job security in my opinion thanks for your input everyone.

 

[birddog32]

Beings how I'm VP of my local...I'll be the guy to give you the "other side" of the story.

First off, the main reason that many trade employees in non-union shops make good money is because the Unions still exist. If non-union shops dont compete salary wise, benefits wise, etc. with union shops, they wouldnt have anyone to work for them.

Also, the bullchit about the pensions being "grey" in Unions...thats not true. Typically union pensions, benefits, and insurance are much more secure than any controlled by a company. Ask the blue-collar guys at Enron how secure their company pension were, they lost it all. Its pretty typical for any company to dissolve their pension plans to benefit the company when the "shit hits the fan". I know many, many hard working employees in my home town that would have lost their pensions, and asses, when timber companies folded up. My Dad would have been screwed if his 27 year pension would have been company controlled when the company folded their tent. They managed to weasel out of paying any severence pay and tried to weasel out of paying vacation time that was due employees when they folded. The contract language, negotiated by the Union saved at least their unpaid vacation time. Also, thanks to the Union, and Union controlled pension, he's enjoying a nice retirement for making his company an ass-pile of money for 27 years.

Companies are quick to share the hard times and pretty slow in sharing the good times.

I also contend that unions are still necessary to maintain some level of fairness and equity amoung workers. Not to slam the trades, but most of the workforce is not capable of negotiating contracts, salary, benefits, etc. on an individual level. Companies hire professionals to "negotiate" those things with employees/Unions, or in the case of non-union shops...largely do what they want. Its pretty tough for an individual to negotiate many of those things on a level playing field without union representation.

I dont think the role of any Union should be to take all they can, only ensure that the workplace is safe, equitable, and that employees are not taken advantage of.

I'm a firm believer in Unions and the representation they provide to the workforce.

As to the "political" end of Unions, I find it no more troubling that they lobby than I do a company doing the EXACT same thing. Never could understand why many find it perfectly acceptable for a company to lobby congress to benefit their company, but find it wrong that a Union lobbies on behalf of the working man to benefit the workforce???

Makes no sense.

When companies stop lobbying, it would also make sense for it to stop on the Union side as well. Until then, bite me...fair is fair.

Amen. Union member since 1974.

 

[TheTone]

My advice is keep pursuing the biology thing, good jobs are out there. Its amzing how many people get the degree and do nothing with them. How open to moving are you?

 

[bennett454]

Ahhh Im glad you asked I'm very open to moving another reason I don't want my dads business. I'd really like to head west. Only problem is My wife and I bought a house in May so I was hoping to stick it out here for a couple yrs until the economy hopefully bounces back. I voluteered to help check in some deer the other weekend in MD and the biologist was telling me he thinks I should wait to go for my masters till I move west. Get more experience with western game and habitat It made sense but I still need more experience in Bio period so I apply for any kind of tempory jobs across the US especially if they provide housing. I love Biology but its a pain to get into and Sheet metals good plus I'm good at which helps even more I'm just trying to figure out all my options lol I even went out and got my CDL lol but again no experience. I'm just jealous of my wife she gets up every morning with a smile on her face and loves going to work I get up hoping I have work while my dad was slow I got a job at a distribution center and hate ever second Im there lol but its something until business picks up again or I find another job in any of these other areas.

 

[BiggWimm]

I am a member of IAFF Local 1696 and couldn't be happier. Even though Utah is a right to work state, it is good to have a voice go to bat for you in the government. Besides giving us a more vocal opinion with the government on all levels, they also ensure that we get better representation at our collective bargaining sessions. The best part is the lawyer they provide when one decides to go stirring up the proverbial pot!

 

[emrah1028]

I knew this was going to be a flame war, but so be it...

Everything you union guys have stated here is EXACTLY what I hate about them. Pay scales are off the charts. The $40/hr. vs. $18/hr example is a good one. Who the hell says a person is worth $40? That's right, the union. NOT the free market. It makes things way more expensive for EVERYONE. Then they get less business and they wonder why they're on the bench in between jobs instead of working. Artificially inflated pay rates that unions FORCE on businesses, taxpayers, etc. is flat out robbery.

Just try and run a construction or remodeling company when you have to deal with unions and the chrony-ism that comes with city building officials being in bed with the unions. Gee, that's not a conflict of interest (or flat out illegal) is it?

You think the UAW and SEIU are squeeky clean? Open your eyes. Who pays for these professional protestors and "Occupy" morons? Yep. Unions. Who get money through favoritism from government. Who rape the taxpayers for it. Nothing like taxpayer-funded slush fund to guarantee hoards of protestors huh?

Why don't unions compete with the rest of the free market? After all, that IS what America was founded on. This country was NOT founded on the belief that EVERYONE HAS to own a house. Make a certain wage. Own a certain car.

You have the freedom (note the "free" part of freedom) to suceed beyond your wildest dreams if you work harder, better, faster and more than the next guy. You also have the freedom to FAIL. Ask anyone who's followed that dream to start and run a business.

But this will fall on death ears.

Emrah