Putting the welfare, in WELFARE RANCHERS

[Lostagain]

So you're saying take the stock off the range for 5 years and see what we have? Hell, propose that and we'll see how things fly. I and quite a few of my rancher friends would go for it IF there more than just a promise to add back some of the grazing to what would be eco sustainable.
Only problem being folkks like IT can't be trusted, once the stock is off they'd never let ANY back on at all.

 

[sdgunslinger]

Well Ithaca , here is a respected ecologist that completely disagrees with your assessment and your prediction . (Savory)

http://www.holisticmanagement.org/grasslands.cfm?

"Resting Grasslands Is Not Natural

Though I have obviously oversimplified many of my points, I hope you can begin to see how they relate to the situation today. This knowledge was lacking 60 years ago when U.S. government agencies established a number of research plots in the Rocky Mountain West to "prove" that grasslands would recover if rested from livestock and other large grazing animals. Initially such plots respond favorably to no grazing, but as oxidation replaces decay the land deteriorates, as you can see when inspecting the plots today. Those I have inspected and photographed all show serious degradation and little difference between the inside (totally protected) and the outside (animals graze in low numbers). Frequently, research by others has reported little difference between grazed and ungrazed land, which supports what the research plots demonstrate."

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-10-2003 15:22: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>

 

[Lostagain]

sd== there is numerous studies that show that very thing, a little rest is good, alot is not.

Hell, IT won't come back to this except to say something about your study was from the "industry" or was conducted and reported by crackpots. Will not accept this a being a credible report to base anything on. IT will stick to all the range is overgrazed and the livestock has to go.... Cattle free by 03?

 

[Ithaca 37]

No, all I'd like is to give the range a rest for a few years to help it start recovering. I'd like to see some brush growing back on streambanks, some recovery in riparian zones, some general all around recovery and then grazing that would not set back the progress that was made. I'd like to see a net gain every year until everything is in excellent condition. Once again, jerks shouldn't be predicting what I want. I've always made it clear that I think grazing is a good tool. Try paying attention.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-10-2003 22:18: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

Another thing Savory teaches is to let land rest. Taking cattle off isn't the end-all-be-all. What IS, is changing the way we view these systems. That includes both manager and society. Things will never be 'pristine' again, but they can be better than they are now in most cases. But, humans are the problem. Until we change our behavior not much new greatness is going to happen fast.

 

[BuzzH]

Slinger and LA, I wouldnt put all my faith in one "expert". I disagree with some of what that article says...

The problem with most grazing on public lands is not the number of animals being grazed, but rather the duration. Most of the tall-grass prairies evolved with a high-intesity short duration grazing pattern. What we've now had for 100+ years, is high intestity long duration, which isnt worth a shit for the range, even tall-grass prairie.

The Palouse Prairies evolved with very light to basically no grazing pressure, and have been pounded into dust by "proper" grazing.

Not all land is created equal, yet that seems to be the thinking amoung the enlightened cattlemen of the West, as well as the BLM, FS, etc...if its green is has to be healthy...and has to be grazed.

Ithaca has the right idea, get back what we lost quick, by resting the land, (in particular riparian areas), and then ease our way back into well-thought out grazing schemes that benefit everybody and the land. I've seen this approach work, and in a damn short time frame...4-5 years and you can SEE a huge difference.

The snails pace we're taking now will gain us nothing and takes too long. The first half-assed drought year and you're back to square one.

 

[Ithaca 37]

sd and Lost, The problem with you guys and your welfare rancher buddies is you'll try every excuse not to change. Smarten up!

sd, "Or is the goal complete elimenation of the livestock industry , first in the West ?"

How ya gonna eliminate the livestock industry on private land back East! And you can't find where anyone here has said it should be eliminated in the West. All we want is responsible grazing that won't abuse public land. You'd want it too if you had half a brain. All public land should be in excellent condition. Neither you nor any of your welfare rancher buddies has ever explained why it shouldn't be---except to satisfy your own greed.

But even if all public land grazing was eliminated in the West it would only amount to less than 5% of the yearly beef production in the US.

Wake up and smell the coffee! You're nothing but a bunch of welfare queens. Get a real job and quit expecting the gummint to support you.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-10-2003 22:41: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

sd, I've posted about a hundred links to articles and studies about the amount of beef production on public land and you've seen many of them. If you don't understand it by now it's because your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top floor.

 

[BuzzH]

Slinger, the problem is getting the thickhead ranchers to implement it, or better yet, get the Feds to DEMAND it from ranchers.

The problem now is, most ranchers use any excuse to NOT implement any new techniques and continue to do it the way grandpappy did things. The amount of improvement on the public lands is so small, it really isnt even worth talking about.

Its time to quit arguing and start solving the problem, which is too much livestock on public lands for too long. It's that simple.

The pace we're going now will never work, like I said, one bad year and the ranchers cry like scaulded cats about how times are tough, we cant make any money, BOOM Gail Norton to the rescue, no more grazing restrictions, stay on public lands longer, etc. etc. etc., wildlife and the habitat be damned! Business as usual, and once again public lands suffer! What a way to manage! Its a joke, and a bad one at that.

 

[Lostagain]

Buzz=="Slinger, the problem is getting the thickhead ranchers to implement it, or better yet, get the Feds to DEMAND it from ranchers"

This is it. From personal experience, 1)I try to quick graze and leave, 2) I tried to fence out the ripa areas but the BLM won't allow that because its not in their little rule book. Thank you for stating it again.
It's way past time for the feds to implement change in their rules on grazing and exactly what the lease is for.

 

[sdgunslinger]

Buzz , can a rancher implement just any old grazing plan he comes up with , or is he tied by govt. regulation to a specific plan ? If he wanted to put in cross fences to improve rotations and provide for rest periods of each piece of range , could he just up and do that or would he again need govt. permission ? Would EIS s be needed for any of the above ? If he forget to cross one T or dot one I , would some Marvelesque dude sue , just for spite ?


"your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top floor."
As per usual from you Ithaca , just half-baked proganda from dubious sources , and personal attacks .

 

[Michaelr]

ithaca is just plain rude

he always calls people names, and makes little childish comments like in the previous posts.

when somebody does the same to him he cries about the rules, or goes off on a rant about how childish you are.

 

[sdgunslinger]

As usual Ithaca , when confronted with facts or expert opinion that goes against your pre-conceived ideas or your ideology , fall back on your stragedy of calling names or go off on one of your welfare rants . You have demonstrated many times here your contempt for a whole class of people you don't agree with .

Come on boy , where are your facts ? , not some half-assed propaganda like "only 5% of beef , bla , bla, bla ." Where is the proof ?


Buzz , I don't think you have read much of Savory's stuff , as short term , high intensity , rotatational grazing patterns are pretty much the crux of his ideas ...........

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-11-2003 00:45: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

mike, I just got tired of asinine remarks by idiots. After challenging some of them dozens of times to back up what they say with any kind of link or quote and never getting answers I decided to start calling a spade a spade and an idiot an idiot. If they don't like it that's tough. It's time somebody started telling them they're a moron. They'll never figure it out otherwise.

Take a look at all the times you, Lost and MD4M make completely false, indefensible, unsupportable statements and when challenged never supply even a shred of back up! Don't you know anything about debating?

 

[Lostagain]

IT=== who cares about debating.....we want info. We want info of what others see, what others have made happen to the betterment of the enviro, How they went about it, whose ass did they kiss and kicked to get it to happen. If you can not get that, sorry. If you can help without calling everyone stupid or idiotic with a different viewpoint and experiences, great. if not....get over it, we have.

 

[Michaelr]

here are a few of ithacas insults that he thinks he never does.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For those of you too stupid to comprehend what you're reading <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You're nothing but a bunch of welfare queens. Get a real job and quit expecting the gummint to support you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you don't understand it by now it's because your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top floor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>mike, I just got tired of asinine remarks by idiots <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I decided to start calling a spade a spade and an idiot an idiot. If they don't like it that's tough. It's time somebody started telling them they're a moron. They'll never figure it out otherwise.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Take a look at all the times you, Lost and MD4M make completely false, indefensible, unsupportable statements and when challenged never supply even a shred of back up! Don't you know anything about debating? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One of the big problems you and a few of your allies here have is that you can't think any more logically than a moth, so you're about as consistent as one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ranchers sit around reading crap like that, bobbing their heads up and down like plastic turtles and saying, "Darn tootin', pardner, it's un-American as hell!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>you might as well grow up and face reality. Don't expect to be gaurenteed a living. Some of you sound like a bunch of socialists! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Grow up and get used to reality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>She can take her questions and shove them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>any dunce that can figure out how to post.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>People who would never be in the same discussion group in real life end up debating things on the Internet. It shows, too!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>idiot who flunked out of grade school <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Anyone too stupid to understand that by now is either hopelessly feeble minded or deliberately lying <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You capable of doing anything besides garbaging up the topics with your infantile crap? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Ithaca 37]

mike, you just don't have any sense of humor!

 

[Michaelr]

now that more like it...

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-11-2003 21:55: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

Great post Mike! All those quotes from Ithaca are hilarious!

I wish I was as funny as Ithaca. Tell you the truth, if Ithaca didn't post here, I probably wouldn't be here. He's entertaining!

 

[sdgunslinger]

Oh yeah , Ithaca is a barrel full of laughs .

But you know what they say about a debater that lowers himselve to name calling and personal attacks...........

And another thing about Ithaca..........he has lousy taste in shotguns........