Particularly bitter irony...

[mtmuley]

Oh boy - here we go again. If you can't do it then criticize the hell out of it and call it ethics. I've seen way too many guys (particularly in 40 years of late season hunts) that couldn't hit their azz with both hands at 100 yds let alone 1000. Maybe we shouldn't allow them to even buy a tag because they are sure not good for a true hunters reputation.

A badly beaten horse this LR stuff. mtmuley

 

[VikingsGuy]

An example of irony, yes -- "particularly bitter", seems like a stretch

 

[1_pointer]

Interesting where the comments on this thread draw the imaginary line compared to say a group of archery only hunters...

 

[Point Creep]

A badly beaten horse this LR stuff. mtmuley

It’s an evangelical method of flogging.

 

[noharleyyet]

I always enjoy your writing Ben, and absolutely no offense, but it's this week's edition of last week's, and seemingly countless other week's tech/ethics thread.

 

[hank4elk]

I was noticing the irony whilst sitting on the can, Ben.
Name me a cruddy old fuddy duddy Nameless.

 

[3855WIN]

On my current whitetail place, 300 yard shots are not uncommon. Most of the time, I shoot a heavy rifle and have sandbags for rest. I also have markers for distances. It's hard to say just what the cutoff is, but the long distance stuff becomes more shooting and less hunting.
I enjoy rifle hunting, but close range with a bow is another level of excitement.
The questions I have for long range hunting are these;

Can you find the spot where the animal was standing so you can track it?

If you don't think you hit it, are you going way over there and checking for sign anyway?

 

[Point Creep]

Now I like RMEF and Barne's ammunition, so please don't think I'm just ripping on them. But the irony in the May-June 2018 Bugle struck me as rich. But I'd like to hear what you think. On page 22, there is a comment from a reader complaining of how his hunt was ruined when a fellow hunter opened fire at a herd of elk 400 yards away, missing the elk and spooking the herd. On the back page there is an ad from Barnes touting ammunition "optimized for one-shot kills out to 700 yards and beyond." Headline "From now on, it's ALL effective range." I mean, 700 yards is nearly a half mile. Elk have sharp senses, but IMO cannot perceive danger from gunfire at that distance. How many hunters practice at 400 yards, let alone 700? How many rifle ranges even stretch that far? Am I an old fuddy-duddy, or does this trend strike you as bad for the future of hunting?

I hear frequent whimpering about somebody's hunt "ruined" by somebody else. Barne's advertising is funny, but no more stupendously ironic than the endless hunting social media posts with numerous hash tags about conservation, food, legacy, family, physical bad-assery and MEAT, with a dead trophy animal that came at a higher price than any truckload of caviar and Kobe beef combined.

I disagree that the "hunt" of a hunt, or any ethics about it, can measured by the distance or closeness that the animal was taken at. My boy has taken 3 bull elk. 2 yards, 15 yards, and 600 yards. None of those elk, "perceived" any danger. The least satisfying "hunt" was where an elk was killed at 15 yards. The most difficult hunt ended up with a 600 yard rifle kill. All were taken on public land, in a wilderness area.

I suggest starting a new thread. The irony of hunting today in the media. It would be VERY fun.

 

[520 Road Sow]

Love it or hate it the LR game is here to stay and probably will only grow more in trend. I got nothing against it as long as the one doing to shooting is competent in making their LR shot on a animal. In my eyes if the LR game is their idea of a hunt then have at it, just make sure you know what your doing before you start "lobin them out there." #sendit

 

[Deleted member 22670]

I like long range shooting and hunting. I don't think it's a bad trend, but I do believe there are people that take certain shots at game that shouldn't. I think there are to many knuckle heads that range, dial up, and send it without ever proving anything on paper. It's all about knowing your equipment and limitations. I will take 600 yard shots on game, but will pass at 700. Why? Because that is my threshold for consistency. Something happens for me and my equipment that makes me uncomfortable at 700, and I have sent hundreds of rounds down range to prove this theory in all sorts of conditions and wind. Last year's cow tipped over at 578, my mule deer at 550, and both antelope were over 400. They were all just as dead as the bull I killed at 75 yards last year. Point is, I don't think it's that black and white and you can't lump all people who take shots past 400 into one "bad" group. Also, comments regarding "lack of skill', or "doing it the easy way" are somewhat naive in my opinion.

 

[uncle sage]

My Grandfather exposed me to the win hungry guys, with all the patina n patches on their shooting vests at our local Rod & Gun Club, early on in my life and i soon learned not to be intimidated, that all i had to do was shoot my old cheaper tools as best i could and that it could often be good enough to beat those guys. By the time i was out of High School, i wasn't one that most of the better shooters liked to see show up and shoot against. Always thought of myself more of a Hunter than a Shooter, I think shooting competitions of any kind, against one's peers, is a fantastic game, a game of Kings as well as the common Man. That said,

Hunting? A whole another Game. It's not about how far...it should be about how cleanly one was able to take that animals life once he decides to punch his tag. Though i've shot a lot of game, i know for a fact that things get really shaky for me on game on anything out past 4-500 yds max, then only under ideal conditions, if i can't get closer.

I watch a lot of guys on their vlog sites keeping it real, showing their misses. If they had shot a little better, those misses would be crippling shots. All the new equipment dialing ranges on designed irons for "way out there", i'll agree that they could be used successful, but by what i'm seeing and hearing, i'm not impressed. What does impress me is seeing or hearing of guys spending weekend and after work times out at the range, shooting the different games to be played, getting better, much more familiar with their tools for serious time, Hunting for real to attempt to take a beautiful big game animals life.

 

[HONEYBADGER]

The Utah hunting process and mentality is leaking into all aspects of hunting now...scary.

 

[Dan O]

QUESTION

How far do you feel comfortable in taking a shot in the field WITHOUT the use of a range finder?

Dan

 

[Deleted member 22670]

QUESTION

How far do you feel comfortable in taking a shot in the field WITHOUT the use of a range finder?

Dan

How far do you feel comfortable in taking a shot in the field WITHOUT the use of a scope?

 

[BrentD]

For me, 300 yds. I don't use scopes for big game. My rifles are all blackpowder cartridge rifles. That is a long shot for game, but it is a chip shot in competition. The differences are profound.

 

[OriginalOscar]

The Utah hunting process and mentality is leaking into all aspects of hunting now...scary.

Dumbest post of day!! How do you jump from long range ethics to Utah?

I'd support jumping on NoHarleyYet and TX. They have heli hog hunts which I find revolting because I can't afford.

 

[LopeHunter]

I like long range shooting and hunting. I don't think it's a bad trend, but I do believe there are people that take certain shots at game that shouldn't. I think there are to many knuckle heads that range, dial up, and send it without ever proving anything on paper. It's all about knowing your equipment and limitations. I will take 600 yard shots on game, but will pass at 700. Why? Because that is my threshold for consistency. Something happens for me and my equipment that makes me uncomfortable at 700, and I have sent hundreds of rounds down range to prove this theory in all sorts of conditions and wind. Last year's cow tipped over at 578, my mule deer at 550, and both antelope were over 400. They were all just as dead as the bull I killed at 75 yards last year. Point is, I don't think it's that black and white and you can't lump all people who take shots past 400 into one "bad" group. Also, comments regarding "lack of skill', or "doing it the easy way" are somewhat naive in my opinion.

My issue is for every marksman that owns a 1000 yard rifle, the next 99 are sold to people that spend less than 10 hours at the gun range a year. Similar to handing the keys for a sports car to a 16 year old. May not end badly for that kid but any EMT will tell you they spend too much time responding to car wrecks where a teen crashed up a shiny, new car.

I have tremendous respect for a marksman that can punch a hole in 18" circle on paper at 1000 yards with the first shot of the day when dealing with some shifting winds and perhaps heat waves. Punching a hole in the vitals of a living animal on the first shot should require a higher level of skill.

I was on a muzzie hunt in KS and was grabbing lunch at a cafe wearing my camo when ran into a camera crew in camo that freelanced for various hunting shows. I did not bring up the long range subject and perhaps they just like making up stuff to pass time as we sat around waiting on our lunch. Horror stories emerged about a long range TV hunter that was pimping long range shots on deer and elk. That TV host talks about classes he took and the custom optics on his rifle so he could just relax as dialed in the range and windage. Bam. Flop. Per the crew, 25% of the time it worked 100% of the time.

 

[devon deer]

the long distance stuff becomes more shooting and less hunting.
I enjoy rifle hunting, but close range with a bow is another level of excitement.
The questions I have for long range hunting are these;

Can you find the spot where the animal was standing so you can track it?

If you don't think you hit it, are you going way over there and checking for sign anyway?

Spot on, tracking and reaction to shot, we always assume we have hit a deer if it runs off, and check the shot area for evidence, blood, hair, pins, colour of blood etc

As for distance it's such an emotive subject, but Barnes 'encouraging' the long shot is not ethical, it's target shooting not hunting, a lot can happen in the time it takes from the bullet leaving the rifle at a 700 yards distant target.

But for an even more emotive subject, head over to some UK forums where head shooting deer is discussed, it gets very heated, and for the record, I am passionately against it!

Cheers

Richard

 

[Deleted member 22670]

My issue is for every marksman that owns a 1000 yard rifle, the next 99 are sold to people that spend less than 10 hours at the gun range a year. Similar to handing the keys for a sports car to a 16 year old. May not end badly for that kid but any EMT will tell you they spend too much time responding to car wrecks where a teen crashed up a shiny, new car.

Not spending enough time at the range is a problem with ALL rifle hunters, not just long range shooters. How many guys do we all know that bring the rifle out to verify zero just before the season, send a few rounds down range, call it good enough, and then go hunt?

Also, a 16 year old can do just as much damage in an 89 toyota camry, as a sports car.

 

[shoots-straight]

Oh boy - here we go again. If you can't do it then criticize the hell out of it and call it ethics. I've seen way too many guys (particularly in 40 years of late season hunts) that couldn't hit their azz with both hands at 100 yds let alone 1000. Maybe we shouldn't allow them to even buy a tag because they are sure not good for a true hunters reputation.

Good idea, we'd have a lot less shootouts going on around here that's for sure.