Oregon Deer Game farm Question...

[elk_hntr]

Tom - The first case of CWD was seen in 1967 in a captive mule deer at the Foothills Wildlife Research Station (operated by the Colorado Dept. of Wildlife) in Ft. Collins and was attributed then by station employees to close confinement of deer to former (scrapie) sheep pasture or to horizontal transmission from sheep allowed into the pens. The shortest known incubation time in deer is 17 months, dating the exposure back to 1965-66 or earlier. Surplus does were released back into the wild after fawning in the facility; the first case in free-ranging wild deer was seen in 1981. Other infected animals were shipped to zoos (Denver, Toronto, Laramie), game farms, and similar research facilities in Colorado and Wyoming.
Let's take a quick moment to applaud the wonderful research work of our Colorado DOW.

Perhaps this is indeed a naturally occurring prion genetic disease or even transmission at winter feeding stations via rendered downer cow protein (ie, a non-UK strain of bovine spongiform encephalopathy) or CWD deer or elk recycled as rendered road kill. CWD deer are commonly observed at feeding stations in Estes Park, Colorado. Does this make CWD man-made? Just a thought.
Here's some more food for thought.
Can you say conflict of interest. A state fish and game department that derives most or all of its salary and program revenue from the sale of game tags jeopardizes this revenue by disclosure of CWD or by safety warnings to hunters. Seems plausible right? This revenue model is applicable to all 11 western states. Also includes departments of agriculture for different reasons. Conflicts of interest can affect the design of monitoring programs, choice of sampling techniques and pathology method, disclosure of results, and non-adherence to the precautionary principle. Diagnosis: public relation releases from the agency equate absence of evidence to evidence of absence. Example: Colorado fish and game officials held a news conference in 1998 stating they would continue to enjoy eating venison from untested deer and elk from epidemic strongholds because it had not been proven to transmit to human, a vacuous reassurance as no study has ever been conducted. What are your thoughts?

 

[Tom]

Well, if the Colorado first case was attributed to the sheep version of this prion disease, i.e. scrapie, and since scrapie has been around for a long time, then it must be a sheep created disease, at least that part that is spreading from Ft.Collins out. I don't study this stuff, but that seems reasonable, eh?

I've read studies where its like 1 in a million for humans, so those 1 in a million could be occuring other places for deer, could have occured in the past, etc. Here's a description of our national research efforts for prion diseases in humans. Humans got it from cattle, so can we get it from deer? There's other things in life more risky than that most likely in our daily life, like getting in a car accident and I have not quit driving a car.

http://cdmrp.army.mil/pubs/pips/npip.pdf

 

[elk_hntr]

Point taken and I certainly have no issue with harvesting my animal, then serving it up for dinner! Right next to my mashed potatoes and gravy!

EH ~

 

[elk_hunter]

elk hunter, did you read the history of CWD years ago. It was first discovered in deer at a research facility where the wild deer captured for research there were in a food study. It doesn't mean it started there and it certainly had nothing to do with antibiotics or vaccines or breeding.

Don't most diseases start in the wild, like when we get the flu, isn't it supposed to be because some Asian family keeps their ducks under their huts?

Say what? How do you know any details about the wild deer in captivity? Were you on-site 24/7 to observe everything? How do you know there weren't injections happening? How do you know the food they were given wasn't some unnatural mix of pig/cow/sheep innards?

I don't think the location of 'most' diseases is relevant in this discussion -- what's relevant is exactly where CWD started; we certainly don't want to generalize. More than likely CWD was caused because humans stuck their dings where they didn't belong.

CWD may be popping up in seemingly 'random' locations, but that's probably an illusion, as the education of this disease is spreading so people know what to look for. If people see weird animals, they may not report it. Quite some time could elapse in what might be thought of as 'safe areas' before the DOW is aware of any issues.

 

[Tom]

"Say what?" What.

"How do you know any details about the wild deer in captivity?" I read some of the reports about it.

"Were you on-site 24/7 to observe everything?" No.

"How do you know there weren't injections happening?" It was a food study, I think there's a description of it. How could any injection of antibiotics have anything to do with this? I never heard of any link there at all.

"How do you know the food they were given wasn't some unnatural mix of pig/cow/sheep innards?" The producers of the food list what the put in their food supplies. That's why they stopped the bones from being put in the animal food for proteain, I read, its got the risky stuff for those prion diseases.

You think its man made eh? Where did scrapie come from? That's the sheep version of the disease that has been around for centuries, probably longer than antibiotics if we checked, I don't know. Do you take antibiotics or you think they'll give you CWD?

It seems to be a naturally occuring disease in man, the human version, pretty rare though. It sure is spreading in deer, elk and moose, they say too.

 

[Moosie]

"Say what?" What.

Thats why Tom's my favorite poster

 

[elk_hunter]

"Say what?" What.

"How do you know any details about the wild deer in captivity?" I read some of the reports about it.

"Were you on-site 24/7 to observe everything?" No.

"How do you know there weren't injections happening?" It was a food study, I think there's a description of it. How could any injection of antibiotics have anything to do with this? I never heard of any link there at all.

"How do you know the food they were given wasn't some unnatural mix of pig/cow/sheep innards?" The producers of the food list what the put in their food supplies. That's why they stopped the bones from being put in the animal food for proteain, I read, its got the risky stuff for those prion diseases.

You think its man made eh? Where did scrapie come from? That's the sheep version of the disease that has been around for centuries, probably longer than antibiotics if we checked, I don't know. Do you take antibiotics or you think they'll give you CWD?

It seems to be a naturally occuring disease in man, the human version, pretty rare though. It sure is spreading in deer, elk and moose, they say too.

First off, it was a question...I didn't issue you a command.

Funny that you put your trust in reports, seemingly blindly. Do you question the source of things for integrity? Or just take everything that comes your way at face value?

Again, with the food study, you trust reports to be accurate. Just because you haven't heard of a link, doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

Yes, food producers document things. But not everything. Again, humans feeding chopped up animal parts to living animals -- brilliant decision -- all in the name of profit taking. It's impossible to know exactly how bad humans screwed up pure wildlife with the introduction of unnecessary man-made/man-induced crap. However, it sure does seem apparent that things have become increasingly jacked with our wildlife...

Scrapie could be man caused...but I really don't know. Injections, biological tests, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. have been going on for centuries so it's impossible to rule them out as the root cause. I am suspicious. For the most part, I don't believe in antibiotics, vaccines, etc. Allopathic medicine has its place in society so I'm not discounting it altogether, but I'm a strong believer in homeopathy and for many things, letting the body heal itself.

 

[Tom]

"Funny that you put your trust in reports, seemingly blindly. Do you question the source of things for integrity? Or just take everything that comes your way at face value?"

Funny you think that about me based on mostly your imagination. Ever heard of peer reviewed research, its about at good as we can do for knowledge to be tested out as true or false, I think, that's what I like to go buy.

I question not only the source, but the evidence. You are the source for antibiotics being a problem and your evidence is that you're suspicious of them. Doesn't hold much in the way on being convincing for me to worry about, got anything better? It sounds like you don't go to the doctor much, is that right, suspicious of them?

 

[elk_hunter]

Hehe...I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just sharing my opinions about the subject in this dialogue.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

How many centuries have antibiotics and vaccines been around?

 

[mtmiller]

"Funny that you put your trust in reports, seemingly blindly. Do you question the source of things for integrity? Or just take everything that comes your way at face value?"

Funny you think that about me based on mostly your imagination. Ever heard of peer reviewed research, its about at good as we can do for knowledge to be tested out as true or false, I think, that's what I like to go buy.

I question not only the source, but the evidence.

After re-reading some of your responses, I thought this post was rather funny.

 

[Tom]

Ok, mtmiller, shoot it to me? Give me some reference that made you laugh because I said that. I bet I'll question the evidence, at least the way its used for the conclusion that you want me to draw. Or, maybe give me a post you want me to back up somehow if you don't have a good reference yourself.

 

[mtmiller]

Here are a few of your quotes I liked from this thread.

I haven't read anywhere where genetics is a problem inside a high fence, its something that can be more easily improved and managed in a high fence though, I have read that.

then later...

You prevent crossbreeding with law and enforce it with well defined tests.

They've always had the tax to cover the elk management expenses as far as I know, but I sure don't live there like some do here, so I just get bits and pieces of info.

I'm just pointing out the facts

The diseases seem to be under control in the game farms now, but not in the wild, so you double fence to keep the wild ones from making the game farm ones get sick from the wild ones in high risk areas.

Curious what your definition of "under control" is?

Don't most diseases start in the wild, like when we get the flu,

Come on, you have to agree with me on this one. Quite laughable.

It was first discovered in deer at a research facility where the wild deer captured for research there were in a food study. It doesn't mean it started there

then

I think they got CWD diseased from the feed in the research facility, back then, they had bone meal for protein in it, probably they got it that way, but I don't know that I've read that, I just made it up.

then

it must be a sheep created disease, at least that part that is spreading from Ft.Collins out. I don't study this stuff, but that seems reasonable, eh?

This seems like reasonable science to me.

I've read studies where its like 1 in a million for humans, so those 1 in a million could be occuring other places for deer,

 

[Tom]

Oh my gosh, that's too many to deal with in one post. Here's an article about the origins of some flu here, you thought that one was laughable.

It comes from Chineese chickens or wild birds carrying it far away, so, we get a lot of flus because of that, haven't you heard of that? If those Chineese didn't raise their birds under their hut, we would have a lot less flu here.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8686

The first one comes from a book on deer management, they actually stated that, I"ll get the book from home and look it up for you.

Under control, is not spreading, they've stopped the spread of CWD and other diseases inside the fence, but it is running rampant, i.e. out of control, in the wild. Look at the Co. and Wy. hunting maps, they've gotten more and more units with CWD over the last several years.

So, you agree, the scientific theory is that sheep or was it in the feed started the CWD in Ft.Collins, then its spread from deer to deer, and now we're at where we're at today.

The argument about first case in Ft.Collins is like this. Say you first discovered sex somewhere, someplace, sometime, I assume you have. That doesn't mean that's where sex started, right? Its just where you first found it, get it? CWD didn't have to start at Fr.Collins, nobody in the scientific world has said it did, no one knowledgeable, not that I know of, have they?
They don't say we know the disease did not exist before the case in Ft.Collins. Not that I am aware of.

Just trying to get the facts straight, that's it, ok?

 

[mtmiller]

Thanks Tom, I got another chuckle.

 

[Tom]

"Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences", that's at the bottom of the bird flu article.

It turns out, from Buzz's post, (not anything scientific, but it stands uncontested in the thread,) Montana never passed the per elk tax on game farm elk, they just have the game farm liscense fee to cover costs and that's all Montana people have come up with. That one, I miss stated a bit, but I said, I only get bits and pieces of the news down here and I appreciated getting the facts straight on that.

 

[noharleyyet]

Thanks Tom, I got another chuckle.

A little fuzzy, even when presented in "Miller perspective".

 

[Tom]

Well, the book doesn't have an index, so its hard to find the statement I remember, but here is one I did find.

Quality Whitetails, Miller and Marchinton, Stackpole Books. They're faculty wildlife people from Georgia. The book is designed to bridge the gap between researchers and deer managers. Page 189 has a section titled, "Should we bring in better stock?". Here's the 3rd paragraph:

"Scientists can rarely say "never" when discussing biological phenomena. Considering this, it is worth pointing out that in special situations (such as deer populations isolated by high fences), some benefits from addition of new stock may be identified in the future. New research also could reveal ways to maximize genetic impacts while adding only a few new animals; however, we know of no puplished reports of measureable genetic enhancement resulting from adding animals to any established herd. On the other side of the coin, scientific evidence clearly supports the value of better habitat as well as sex and age structure in improving deer quality."

Sure doesn't sound like there are a bunch of "genetic mutants" anywhere to me. When people are worried about it, (although these researchers said in their 1995 book there is none) the genetic inbreeding, I think they just shoot out a bunch of cow, hinds, does, or ewes, and bring in a fresh batch with some new genes. I've heard of places doing that, the female has half the genes, so they work to improve those too, some of them, as I understand it.

 

[shoots-straight]

Tom, what about when a elk farmer adds red deer genes to his herd to bring out the crowning effect brought forth by such breeding? Isn't that genetic pollution of a species. Oh and that Asiatic,brohma,slash holstein you shot last year.

 

[hntrjohn]

Hey California FINALLY is doing something right and you gave it away...thanks Curly, I'm sure there will soon be pending legislation to allow game farms in Kalifornistan...after all we can't infringe on anyone's rights now can we... (Note "Sarcasm")

If you look at the illastration, t says ELK FARMS.

There are deer, and exotic farms thatI know about. Go down hwy 101. the 10 foot fences are not for hogs and beef cows