NRA On The Hot Seat - Exposed or Attacked?

[Ben Lamb]

Off topic, but "free" college? How? mtmuley

It's a bad name, and of course it isn't "free", but it will be a cost savings over incarceration, etc that comes with elevated crime rates.

In Wyoming, that bastion of liberalism, they have the Hathaway Scholarship that helps deliver on that. It's a trust fund that was set up with general fund dollars (tax revenue) and applied to all Wyoming High Schoolers who passed w/a certain GPA. It provides seed funding for them to go to a JuCo or UW.

It's a really well done program: https://communitycolleges.wy.edu/programs/hathaway-scholarship/

 

[Western Traveler1]

Many times, that violence comes from the same place: poverty & lack of healthcare.

We've created a reality that works for a few, while leaving millions behind with little chance of advancement. We underfund veterans healthcare, and we stigmatize mental health care. The leading cause for gun deaths in America is suicide. A National Health System that includes mental health care would do wonders to reduce that statistic & save untold lives. The gun is simply the tool for carrying out the disease.

We laughed when President Obama said it was easier to buy a gun than a computer in certain Chicago neighborhoods, but it's the truth. Until we have a way to stop the cycle of impoverishment that has captivated entire communities, black & white, urban & rural, then we won't reduce that segment of Gun Violence. But do you know what would? Scholarships to Trade Schools & Junior Colleges. Free college, with safeguards related to grades & specific courseloads, lifts people out of poverty by providing training for good jobs while not overproducing liberal arts majors with an emphasis on postmodern dance( Still important, but that appreciation of art can be well served as a minor while you get your welding associates degree).

It's another grand example of one side correctly identifying the issue (conservatives who focus on the root of an issue) while another has good policy solutions (NHS, free college) but because we'd rather yell at each other, we'd not get to the point of recognizing each other's wisdom.

This,
Enforce the laws already on the books and deal with the issues of poverty, mental illness and the feelings of hopelessness..

 

[mtmuley]

Thanks Ben. Now I see

It's a bad name, and of course it isn't "free", but it will be a cost savings over incarceration, etc that comes with elevated crime rates.

In Wyoming, that bastion of liberalism, they have the Hathaway Scholarship that helps deliver on that. It's a trust fund that was set up with general fund dollars (tax revenue) and applied to all Wyoming High Schoolers who passed w/a certain GPA. It provides seed funding for them to go to a JuCo or UW.

It's a really well done program: https://communitycolleges.wy.edu/programs/hathaway-scholarship/

Thanks. mtmuley

 

[beginnerhunter]

It's a bad name, and of course it isn't "free", but it will be a cost savings over incarceration, etc that comes with elevated crime rates.

In Wyoming, that bastion of liberalism, they have the Hathaway Scholarship that helps deliver on that. It's a trust fund that was set up with general fund dollars (tax revenue) and applied to all Wyoming High Schoolers who passed w/a certain GPA. It provides seed funding for them to go to a JuCo or UW.

It's a really well done program: https://communitycolleges.wy.edu/programs/hathaway-scholarship/

Not bad. Definitely would rather see $$ spent on practical trade programs rather than prop up the bloated higher ed system we have now. Might also be cool to have an economic policy that supports creation of some good blue collar jobs to go along with those skills.

Ben, can you think of any 2A advocacy groups worth supporting (preferably one that won't get me labeled a domestic terrorist) or are they all too icky? Sorry if you've already mentioned some in this thread, didn't feel like wading through it and wanted to get the opinion of a leftist. Thanks!

 

[beginnerhunter]

Also, if any of you live in West Virginia and don't have Joe Manchin's office saved in your phone, you're not helping.

 

[LopeHunter]

Hyperbole aside, I agree with this.

Which is why having the NRA being a sycophant to power rather than be an advocate for the second amendment & the sporting heritage is such a huge loss. GOA is far, far right & not well liked outside of the hardcore 2a crowd. Their rhetoric falls in with some of the militias we see.

But this has been my issue with many of the advocates on both sides of this issue: Everybody agrees that there is an issue with gun violence in America. That's not a controversial statement unless you want to argue semantics. Rural America has an issue, as does urban America. Many times, that violence comes from the same place: poverty & lack of healthcare.

We've created a reality that works for a few, while leaving millions behind with little chance of advancement. We underfund veterans healthcare, and we stigmatize mental health care. The leading cause for gun deaths in America is suicide. A National Health System that includes mental health care would do wonders to reduce that statistic & save untold lives. The gun is simply the tool for carrying out the disease.

We laughed when President Obama said it was easier to buy a gun than a computer in certain Chicago neighborhoods, but it's the truth. Until we have a way to stop the cycle of impoverishment that has captivated entire communities, black & white, urban & rural, then we won't reduce that segment of Gun Violence. But do you know what would? Scholarships to Trade Schools & Junior Colleges. Free college, with safeguards related to grades & specific courseloads, lifts people out of poverty by providing training for good jobs while not overproducing liberal arts majors with an emphasis on postmodern dance( Still important, but that appreciation of art can be well served as a minor while you get your welding associates degree).

It's another grand example of one side correctly identifying the issue (conservatives who focus on the root of an issue) while another has good policy solutions (NHS, free college) but because we'd rather yell at each other, we'd not get to the point of recognizing each other's wisdom.

There is much wisdom in this.

Is easy to point to the dead body on the ground and say that particular veteran was weak so took their own life. Could have used a buck knife but often is a handgun. There are too many guns in the hands of people that have no business owning them legally much let illegally. There is too little done to help veterans adjust to what they did on our behalf at our request. We are burning and churning these men and women then tossing Rx at them to numb rather than adjust.

We need to fix healthcare. I can change jobs and my car insurance stays where it is and I can use the same mechanic. No mechanic will say the car had a pre-existing condition so will not work on that particular issue. I can buy a new car and have insurance in place in minutes.

Healthcare is a mess where I can change jobs and there will be a gap in health coverage of a month or more even with full-time work so I can opt for COBRA yet small companies are not mandated to offer COBRA. High School should not be the end of education for the majority of our youth. College is not the answer for everyone though expecting an 18 year old to work a $12 an hour job and keep ahead of the college bills is not realistic and results in some smart kids being left behind. HVAC school, tech training, internships, apprenticeships, etc are valid ways to continue learning beyond high school and many options offer certification that shows others you have learned a set of skills. Oh, my participation in a retirement plan can be held up for a year.

We do not all start on the same starting line. Some of us had two parents, wealthy grandparents and food on the table. Some of us had a lot of siblings, an AWOL parent or two or were in foster care where hugs were uncommon. I want the kids from all those backgrounds to have a chance at the same post-high school learning opportunities. Just as I want them all to have a chance at kindergarten and high school. Will not be inexpensive. Neither is the way we are doing things today where a lot of smart, hard-working kids struggle to grab on the first wrung of the post-high school ladder. Things should be easier and the tent should be bigger with more chairs for these kids to become more valuable to themselves and society.

The Devil is in the details. Medical is expensive so handing it out like candy is costly. Lawsuits and liability insurance are part of today's costs. The billing red tape is another impediment to cutting costs. The VA and Indian Affairs should roll into mainstream medical. ER should not be were a poor mother goes to get Desitin for a baby's diaper rash but that saves her money while society picks up the bigger cost. Being poor is not much fun and should be an incentive for working hard to emerge out of poverty but the large number of those in poverty seems to imply that incentive is not creating widespread results. Weak people? Lazy people? Failed system that keeps the first wrung of the ladder out of reach? A bit of all that, perhaps.

I worked hard and still do. I never stopped learning. I sacrificed. I won at life. I used to think my hustle and smarts were 90% of my success. Now, not as sure. Perhaps starting on about the 5th wrung on the ladder set things in motion and I super-charged from there. I want more of today's youth to start higher on the ladder.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Not bad. Definitely would rather see $$ spent on practical trade programs rather than prop up the bloated higher ed system we have now. Might also be cool to have an economic policy that supports creation of some good blue collar jobs to go along with those skills.

Ben, can you think of any 2A advocacy groups worth supporting (preferably one that won't get me labeled a domestic terrorist) or are they all too icky? Sorry if you've already mentioned some in this thread, didn't feel like wading through it and wanted to get the opinion of a leftist. Thanks!

Unfortunately, I can't think of any national groups. I used to have a lot of respect for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, but they took the hard right bait as well. Not as bad as others, but some of their positions &statements left a distinct kool-aid after-taste. Local Rod & Gun clubs can & have done more to shift the tide of legislation than folks would think. Your local club has clout. That's a great place to get involved.

 

[Redside]

Unfortunately, I can't think of any national groups. I used to have a lot of respect for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, but they took the hard right bait as well. Not as bad as others, but some of their positions &statements left a distinct kool-aid after-taste. Local Rod & Gun clubs can & have done more to shift the tide of legislation than folks would think. Your local club has clout. That's a great place to get involved.

Been wondering about another organization as well. I was thinking NSSF as well, they did that podcast with Rinella a while back and I liked the conversation. Maybe it has changed since then? Or maybe its kind of like the uncomfortable feeling some guys that are more right leaning get with supporting BHA? It's one of those, well I don't agree with everything they do, but I agree with the majority. I'll have to look NSSF over more.

My uncle bought me a lifetime NRA membership about 30 years ago when I was a young teen, so I get their hunting magazine. They have ads in there with Lapierre asking for donations. Are you freaking kidding me! So he can go buy new suits. Just can't support them with out a complete overhaul.

 

[Pmacc60]

There is much wisdom in this.

Is easy to point to the dead body on the ground and say that particular veteran was weak so took their own life. Could have used a buck knife but often is a handgun. There are too many guns in the hands of people that have no business owning them legally much let illegally. There is too little done to help veterans adjust to what they did on our behalf at our request. We are burning and churning these men and women then tossing Rx at them to numb rather than adjust.

We need to fix healthcare. I can change jobs and my car insurance stays where it is and I can use the same mechanic. No mechanic will say the car had a pre-existing condition so will not work on that particular issue. I can buy a new car and have insurance in place in minutes.

Healthcare is a mess where I can change jobs and there will be a gap in health coverage of a month or more even with full-time work so I can opt for COBRA yet small companies are not mandated to offer COBRA. High School should not be the end of education for the majority of our youth. College is not the answer for everyone though expecting an 18 year old to work a $12 an hour job and keep ahead of the college bills is not realistic and results in some smart kids being left behind. HVAC school, tech training, internships, apprenticeships, etc are valid ways to continue learning beyond high school and many options offer certification that shows others you have learned a set of skills. Oh, my participation in a retirement plan can be held up for a year.

We do not all start on the same starting line. Some of us had two parents, wealthy grandparents and food on the table. Some of us had a lot of siblings, an AWOL parent or two or were in foster care where hugs were uncommon. I want the kids from all those backgrounds to have a chance at the same post-high school learning opportunities. Just as I want them all to have a chance at kindergarten and high school. Will not be inexpensive. Neither is the way we are doing things today where a lot of smart, hard-working kids struggle to grab on the first wrung of the post-high school ladder. Things should be easier and the tent should be bigger with more chairs for these kids to become more valuable to themselves and society.

The Devil is in the details. Medical is expensive so handing it out like candy is costly. Lawsuits and liability insurance are part of today's costs. The billing red tape is another impediment to cutting costs. The VA and Indian Affairs should roll into mainstream medical. ER should not be were a poor mother goes to get Desitin for a baby's diaper rash but that saves her money while society picks up the bigger cost. Being poor is not much fun and should be an incentive for working hard to emerge out of poverty but the large number of those in poverty seems to imply that incentive is not creating widespread results. Weak people? Lazy people? Failed system that keeps the first wrung of the ladder out of reach? A bit of all that, perhaps.

I worked hard and still do. I never stopped learning. I sacrificed. I won at life. I used to think my hustle and smarts were 90% of my success. Now, not as sure. Perhaps starting on about the 5th wrung on the ladder set things in motion and I super-charged from there. I want more of today's youth to start higher on the ladder.

I really respect what your saying here but I deal with the really rich on a daily bases , I work in Joe Biden’s neighborhood for his friends and Joe house as well in the past . One of the few contractors who got paid. I know these kids from birth and I can tell you 1st wrung or the top wrung success is in the person. I know self made people who were orphaned and I know kids who came from homes that the family had hundreds of millions of dollars and were straight loser.

 

[BWALKER77]

This question is based upon the false premise these problems are "fixable" in the first place. There will never be a "fix", but problems can be mitigated to various degrees.

I would point to drunk driving and seat belt laws as two examples of government intervention that have greatly mitigated these two issues.

The government hasn't mitigated the two issues I mentioned at all. In fact both have gotten much worse since .gov got involved in a major way.
Drunk driving hasnt lessened because of any law government passed. It just has become less socially acceptable in some areas.

 

[El Jason]

The government hasn't mitigated the two issues I mentioned at all. In fact both have gotten much worse since .gov got involved in a major way.
Drunk driving hasnt lessened because of any law government passed. It just has become less socially acceptable in some areas.

Carry on.

 

[BWALKER77]

Carry on.

Just the truth.

 

[El Jason]

Just the truth.

Back it up with some data. Arguing with you has the same predictable results as certain other actions, of which I'll leave up to one's own imagination.

 

[warmer]

Let’s circle this back to the NRA please.

 

[Pmacc60]

Let’s circle this back to the NRA please.

The NRA has to restructure but that is the least of their problem . They took a serious PR hit with all the 2019 scandal . With the thug reputation they had and the shady things going on I don’t think they can recover. In truth they let as member down when we need them them most. Using a few good men court scene as a metaphor to the NRA ” you want me on that wall ,you need me on that wall” we may not agree with the NRA but we needed them standing guard and for a while they did a good job ,

Hyperbole aside, I agree with this.

Which is why having the NRA being a sycophant to power rather than be an advocate for the second amendment & the sporting heritage is such a huge loss. GOA is far, far right & not well liked outside of the hardcore 2a crowd. Their rhetoric falls in with some of the militias we see.

But this has been my issue with many of the advocates on both sides of this issue: Everybody agrees that there is an issue with gun violence in America. That's not a controversial statement unless you want to argue semantics. Rural America has an issue, as does urban America. Many times, that violence comes from the same place: poverty & lack of healthcare.

We've created a reality that works for a few, while leaving millions behind with little chance of advancement. We underfund veterans healthcare, and we stigmatize mental health care. The leading cause for gun deaths in America is suicide. A National Health System that includes mental health care would do wonders to reduce that statistic & save untold lives. The gun is simply the tool for carrying out the disease.

We laughed when President Obama said it was easier to buy a gun than a computer in certain Chicago neighborhoods, but it's the truth. Until we have a way to stop the cycle of impoverishment that has captivated entire communities, black & white, urban & rural, then we won't reduce that segment of Gun Violence. But do you know what would? Scholarships to Trade Schools & Junior Colleges. Free college, with safeguards related to grades & specific courseloads, lifts people out of poverty by providing training for good jobs while not overproducing liberal arts majors with an emphasis on postmodern dance( Still important, but that appreciation of art can be well served as a minor while you get your welding associates degree).

It's another grand example of one side correctly identifying the issue (conservatives who focus on the root of an issue) while another has good policy solutions (NHS, free college) but because we'd rather yell at each other, we'd not get to the point of recognizing each other's wisdom.

I see your point but so much has been given to the have nots only to see it fail or create a sense of entitlement , I an a real life liberal , my wife is the Director of Public housing for a county in southeastern Pa. We both give our time and money to make life better for people who are in need. You quickly find out your good intentions do very little to help . Many people my wife houses are second and third generation subsidy people.They know the system better than The housing authority does. My wife come home upset tonight that a woman she was trying to help made a false and easily disputed complaint all because she made twice the money this past year then she did in 19 and her rent went up. A whole year of making more and paying the same set rent because it based on yearly recertification didn’t matter to her but she sure got in the office when she lost child support and got a rent reduction. These people are products of the system and giving more to them is not going to help. Job training and education can help but only a few, why work for twenty dollars an hour when I can make hundreds a day selling drugs and pay $50 a month rent. Many need help , vets ,the elderly Handicapped mentally and physically . For every person who is of need there are any more who beat the system. There not bad people but it’s all they know. I try to give at least 15000 in pro Bono work every year and run food and even furniture to some of those who have nothing but you would be surprised by those who don’t want the stuff . I was given a bedroom suit from a VP of DuPont company. Very nice set, it’s sitting in the community room with no takers because?? The residents are to lazy to move it in their apartment. One manager did a food delivery when COVID 19 hit. She stopped because the residents would not take or threw it away. It ended up at my house and I gave it to my adult children , all successful , all educated but like my son said if they had to buy it they would appreciate it! Not that you said this but you can’t throw money at this problem we need to reinvent the system. It’s not a race thing it’s social economic thing and the cycle needs to be broken

 

[grizzly63]

Off topic, but "free" college? How? mtmuley

socialism, just shy of communism. well not quite but you get the idea. Somebody has to pay for it. The people at the top pay the least in taxes as they had some say in how the laws were written. The ones at the bottom stay there or drag their butts out of it. They dont pay much in taxes either. It us in the middle that bear a lot of cost. Has anyone here actually read the federal budget and know where all our money is going? I have not but have learned enough about pork barrel and special interest and offshore foreign govt spending that I cant help but believe there is room for improvement to help out with a few well intentioned ideas here at home. Our grandchildren will be paying off these debts we are accumulating. Hell, the Chinese will be owning a lot of this country if we don't get our chit together.

 

[Pmacc60]

Let’s circle this back to the NRA please.

I sorry to say the NRA is dead and there is little hope of resurrection , they have no credibility left. The trouble being a bully is when you hit the bottom you have no sympathy coming. They have let us down and we really needed them.

 

[Ben Lamb]

socialism, just shy of communism. well not quite but you get the idea. Somebody has to pay for it. The people at the top pay the least in taxes as they had some say in how the laws were written. The ones at the bottom stay there or drag their butts out of it. They dont pay much in taxes either. It us in the middle that bear a lot of cost. Has anyone here actually read the federal budget and know where all our money is going? I have not but have learned enough about pork barrel and special interest and offshore foreign govt spending that I cant help but believe there is room for improvement to help out with a few well intentioned ideas here at home. Our grandchildren will be paying off these debts we are accumulating. Hell, the Chinese will be owning a lot of this country if we don't get our chit together.

I've read it. In that federal budget, we spend over $80 billion per year in incarceration.

We spend around $60 billion per year in education.

That doesn't account for state budgets. Spending more in education ultimately means spending less for incarcerations. Good investment.

@Pmacc60, great post, I'll respond tomorrow.

 

[Scrappy]

THIS PIC REALLY PUTS EVERYTHING INTO PERSPECTIVE. (EDITED by Big Fin)

Folks who want to derail very important topics in this manner get shown the door. Expect a lot less tolerance of this crap going forward. We are at over 500 posts of a what is a very controversial and important topic and people have shown great restraint in keep to the topic at hand and resisting some of this crap.

I'm not interested in locking the thread, as to me, the 2nd Amendment is too important to not have honest and difficult discussions. And I think it plays a critical role in the WHY of this forum. Those who want to place politics and conspiracy theories above that can take their keyboard to Facebook.

Another big Q followers might want to start packing their keyboards now. Your time on this site will be short.

 

[shrapnel]

All the NRA bashing and lack of credibility of the NRA (or the appearance of it) has alienated many supporters. Division is as bad as all the claims of LaPierre ineptness.

Many claim life membership and jump off the cliff like a bunch of lemmings. I am an endowment life member and I am not abandoning the ship. I may be naive, but I am not giving up and have seen worse disasters that survived.

All the rhetoric and discontent has not made the protection of the 2nd Amendment one bit better. The mention of GOA and all the other supposed advocates of the 2nd Amendment, don’t address the current problems with gun ownership.

There are some very simple, but overlooked symptoms of gun ownership in America. The worst is complacency. If there are 75 million gun owners in America, where is their concern for that right? 7 million members of the NRA and it goes down from there.

If you were to add up all the active gun advocates, you still would have a super minority. Among the 75 million gun owners, you don’t have a majority that believe it is a right, but own a gun for whatever personal reason they subscribe to.

If all or any of the dissatisfied gun owners were united, the NRA alternatives would be much larger. The fact is, they aren’t and there isn’t any real measurable effect of the alternatives.

The NRA has another side that isn’t Wayne LaPierre and that is the legislative aspect and the recognition by the Congress and other organizations that understand the power of a legislative body, and they know nothing of who Wayne LaPierre is or isn’t. I still stand behind the NRA for that reason and with all the discontent among the ranks, I don’t see a single bright spot that has any clout to move forward in regards to our protection of the 2nd Amendment.