Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[Eric Albus]

I think that would require FWP leadership to be elected, not appointed, and we'd have to remove legislative involvement in wildlife management issues.

I used to advocate election of the director of FWP. It sounds great initially. Then I got to thinking(doesn't happen often) and what happens when you get a far left or right candidate who is popular and is backed by serious dark money with an agenda. Say a really pro-outfitter candidate or really pro-predator candidate? Appointment of these positions might be the best thing. Convince me otherwise.

 

[Eric Albus]

I 100% agree with restricting the season length and I would guess most here do also. Perhaps some support from MOGA would go a long ways to change it?

I wish you the best with your growing season. Was just out in Glendive and it’s as dry as I’ve ever seen. Maybe we could make NR hunters bring 5 gallons of water with them when they come out to hunt

if all of them invading Region 6 brought 5 gallons I'd have to build an ark.

 

[MTTW]

They bring 5 gallons of beer now, but it all ends up on the ground next to the truck tire.

 

[sacountry]

I used to advocate election of the director of FWP. It sounds great initially. Then I got to thinking(doesn't happen often) and what happens when you get a far left or right candidate who is popular and is backed by serious dark money with an agenda. Say a really pro-outfitter candidate or really pro-predator candidate? Appointment of these positions might be the best thing. Convince me otherwise.

It boils down to accountability. Under the current system, the FWP Director is appointed so he's really accountable to governor. To that end we have that very one-sided risk you suggest, today. These are pipe dreams, but the FWP Director should be elected and held accountable to the FWP Commissioners who are appointed by the governor now but their appointments could cycle on staggered 6 year terms, preventing any two term governor from stacking the commission.

 

[BuzzH]

I think that would require FWP leadership to be elected, not appointed, and we'd have to remove legislative involvement in wildlife management issues.

Not true, the Department and Commission are both running scared from fear of actually managing.

The Commission and the Department already have the ability to set regulation (shorten seasons, change seasons, etc.)...they won't do it.

They don't have to issue 11,000 doe tags in the 700's.

They don't even try...

 

[sacountry]

Not true, the Department and Commission are both running scared from fear of actually managing.

The Commission and the Department already have the ability to set regulation (shorten seasons, change seasons, etc.)...they won't do it.

They don't have to issue 11,000 doe tags in the 700's.

They don't even try...

The effectiveness of the Commissioners and FWP is up to the beholder. Our legislators are proving, to me anyway, that they can't legislate fairly and effectively. My point is that our governor and special interest groups are having their way with our legislators and FWP Director. When it comes to wildlife issues, I would rather be making calls to biologists and commissioners who should be free from any ties to anyone or group vs our elected officials. At least the FWP decision makers are charged with making decisions with the best interest of wildlife in mind. As soon as legislators get involved, you allow non-wildlife agendas to enter the picture.

 

[LostinOregon1]

This legislation will have an effect long term. More ground will be leased by outfitters as they will be able to guarantee a certain amount of hunters per year. In my opinion you will see the ground being enrolled in the block management begin to be reduced over time and transferred back to the outfitters.

I don't see any outfitter going out and shooting every deer living on their leases, as I have said before if it wasn't for landowners on the SE side of Montana, everything would be dead. An outfitter has a vested interest in having certain age classes of deer present on their leases. I know not all think that way, but my experience is that most think this way.

The draw impact will be noticeable for the DIY NR. Two points has been 100% for the deer combo, this law puts all of the outfitted hunters in the two point group whether they have built up points or not. If the two point group grows, which it will, the one point group will have less tags, thus lowering the draw odds. A certain amount of tags are set aside for folks with no points, so the no point draw maybe better than the one point draw, but you can't get to the two point draw as a DIY unless you buy a point and go through a year so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

If there was 1 mule deer buck left in Montana, we would be arguing with each other trying to figure out who gets to fire the last bullet.

Rich

 

[shoots-straight]

It was not the outfitters who broke the trust. Ballot initiative 161 broke the trust.
Under the tenure of the OSL numbers of outfitters and leased acres went backward. When the OSL was created there was something like 7-8 million acres leased by outfitters, as per the current audit on BoO we are currently using 6-6.2m.
As to the wildlife, I will speak only to Eastern Montana (the only MT left).

Region 6 mule deer need management. We need to pressure this commission to end an 11 week slaughter of “OUR” resource. The muzzleloader season should replace the last 20 days of general (rifle)season. Muzzleloader or archery only. Or go to LE permits the last 15-20 days of rifle season.
While we’re making demands, pick your region, then area within region, pick weapon will follow. There are to many hunters, R&NR for a finite resource. I am willing to do this even though it will harm my potential outfitting wise.

Those with better ideas come forth, as there are better and brighter minds on here than mine.

BTW, I wasn’t on a spinner either(would’ve liked to if that counts) I’ve been preoccupied with cattle and spring planting. Looking at the driest spring I’ve ever seen. We’re drier right now than ‘85 or ‘88. Looking at empty stock dams and tough range conditions. A grain crop that won’t sprout without rain. So I’ve haven’t been up to much.

Respectfully "HORSE SHIT" you never read the rest of my post after that. The reason I-161 happened was because of the breech. Those of you that mutate information to fill in your talking points came up the the access issues. I gathered signatures, (will again) because I tired of the numbers of licensed guides showing up on every piece of property I hunted.

 

[timmy]

Not true, the Department and Commission are both running scared from fear of actually managing.

The Commission and the Department already have the ability to set regulation (shorten seasons, change seasons, etc.)...they won't do it.

They don't have to issue 11,000 doe tags in the 700's.

They don't even try...

Unfortunately CWD has sured up their management. The “science” is to kill deer. All of them.

 

[Andrew Posewitz]

Andrew, we have not met, but I will assume that you hold many of the same beliefs as your dad did, he was a genuine good guy and could agree to disagree on certain subjects.

This bill does nothing you suggest. Those 3000 ppl you are worried about were not coming to Montana without the use of an outfitter. They were staying home until this bill passed.

Passage of this will result in those business', outfitter business' and rural Montana communities seeing more money. The amount of money I spend locally on groceries and fuel the months of Sept.-Dec. is staggering. The amount of money my clients spend at Stoughies Bar and Grill, in beautiful downtown Hinsdale is big. Big enough the proprietor pulled me aside last year and made a special point of thanking me for our supporting him. He told me, "with covid the other non-resident hunters staying in town and camping in the park are not coming in at all".

I will agree with whomever said 143 was a better deal(after it was amended to historical use, 40%). It wasn't our team who amended 143 to make it untenable. Had 143 passed nobody would have seen any negative impact to their motel/restaurant/grocery store as you suggest. With 143 the number of hunters going with outfitters would have been static, as would have the number of DIY guys remained static. There would have been no great "leasing of private lands", proof of this is since passage of 161 outfitter leased acreage decreased, and we (outfitters) had basically unlimited license. I can remember a couple years after 161 passed having former clients call in late November, book a hunt and buy a license at Walmart in Miles City. 161's "unintended consequences". Should 143 have been vetted with the adversaries, most likely it should have. I'd like to believe that rational adults(who are few and far between) could come up with a compromise that the sporting community and the outfitting community can live with. There is so little trust on either side that this may be impossible.

I can't foresee the "unintended consequences" of the bill that just passed, but I have no doubt there will be many.

Eric,
Thank you for the kind words about my dad, they are appreciated and I respect your willingness to come on here and provide alternate views. This place is more valuable because of your contributions. I think this will be a place where we will disagree, but I have no intention of walking away agreeing to disagree, I intend to keep arguing. Indefinitely.

If you read the post, my objection was not with the additional tags, it’s that those tags only are for people who use outfitters, this is wrong in my opinion. If everyone had equal opportunity some of them would choose to hunt without a guide, stay in hotels and eat in restaurants. With this bill they will not have this choice because the government is requiring them to hire an outfitter.

Your construct is false in that it poses two choices. This bill or nothing which is a false choice; they could have chosen to follow the will of the Montana voter and allow 3000 additional out of state tags to those who didn’t draw, regardless if they had booked a trip with a guide. By not allowing them the choice, the hotels and restaurants lose. I love guides and have used them but it should be my choice.

If this was an honorable bill it wouldn’t have been handled the way it was. Shady. This will hurt you in the long run. Senator Molnar has it right, this will cost seats. The Gov will be forced to answer why he supported the government picking winners and losers after he vetoed a different bill for the same reason less than 90-days after being the keynote speaker at the annual MOGA event. This liability will grow with time, not diminish.

The reality is that as more people learn to hunt without a guide, the demand is and will continue to decrease relative to the overall hunting population. It may not be felt in Montana because the overall demand for hunting is increasing which will help counteract this (which is great, I want you to succeed, but not because the government is requiring it) but not enough over time. 143 was also an effort to stop the free market trend of a lower % of hunters wanting to hire a guide. It is more than a little ironic that the bill sought to create a static limit right where the free market had already landed. (Think that one through- the free market was good enough to set the limit but not good enough to keep setting it going forward. Why?) It that weren’t true, neither of these bills would be requested. This bill, the way it was passed and its impacts are unconscionable. The only question is will people remain mad enough for long enough to have it matter. I will do everything in my power to make sure they do.

 

[teamhoyt]

Applied for the business license today lol!

 

[antlerradar]

While I "liked" your post,,this change will not happen. We might not like it if they did. There are many species of animals that exist in some sort of equilibrium without being hunted, at all.

I do think the days of general elk tags and deer tags has been obsolete for a long time. Also obsolete is the 5 week rifle season. Also, given the advancement in effectiveness of archery equipment, that season could use a second look.

I'd like to see hunters, choose one weapon and then live with it. Archery or rifle,,,,,and now muzzleloader.

Of course those changes won't happen either. Political inertia is very difficult to overcome. We all know that things are on a bad glide path. It will take a crash to make us make tough choices.

You are so correct. The idealist in me is getting through my calloused fingers and on to the keyboard.

 

[Eric Albus]

Applied for the business license today lol!

To late

 

[OverlordBear]

I will never pay an outfitter in Montana ever and I would do anything to undermine their existence or business in any political or economic way possible. Their as bad as domestic public land sheep grazers.

 

[OverlordBear]

^^^^^^^^ No truer statement than this right here!

It is what snakes and thieves do. Politicians and outfitters are vile creatures.

 

[Wildabeest]

This breaks my heart, it really does. At $5,000 per guided hunt (intentionally conservative) this just resulted in $15,000,000 of revenue to use to lease up land and keep you off. At $15m with 400ish guides, it is roughly $38k per outfitter. No more complaints about the $1200 stimulus please.

The bill sponsor referred to something like bumbling out of staters should be with a guide, that should piss you off to your core, it does me. The flip side is they upped by $7,500 the payments for those few (less than 20) landowners maxed out and providing public access in block management. You do the math on that, compare it to the numbers above and see who values public access and public land and who doesn’t.

My grieving is officially over. Here are some things we can do:

Remember who did this to you today. Not just for the day, and not just for tomorrow, next week or next month, but for the next two years and the years after that. If this matters to you, vote like it, otherwise stop being mad.

The cards have never been more clearly laid on the table than they were today. This bill was dead for a month, shoved in on the next to last day of the session, voted the same day it was introduced by both houses in a bill that had nothing to do with outfitters. None of this is an accident and they are counting on you to not notice and not remember. Prove them wrong or stop being mad.

You all likely belong to organizations that are related to the outdoors. Find out who went to battle on this, really went to battle. Ask the others you belong to why they didn’t. If they are no longer serving you as a member, get them to change, leave, or stop being mad.

My vote and your vote will not be enough, we each have to change 5 votes, or even 10. What happened today is evidence that they don’t care about public hunting, they don’t care about you and they certainly don’t think you will change your votes. Prove them wrong or stop being mad.

I have seen my Dad’s rules for leadership bouncing around these chat rooms. Here are the two I will hold close for a while:

5. When you talk to your people, preach hope and possibility. Eric Hoffer said revolution is built on hope, not despair. The conservation community is terrible for wailing on the peril of things – that inspires no one.

6. Make everything work for you, the good and bad. The best example is how the conservation movement used James Watt to rebuild their movement.

For those paying attention and looking for ways to continue to take action on this, Andrew posted much of his commentary above in an Op-ed in the Missoula Current as well.

Opinion: Legislature's tags for guides bypasses revenue, locks out hunters

Andrew Posewitz writes, This passed in spite of the fact that Montanans abolished these tags by ballot measure, and the bill that was introduced this session trying to overturn that measure was killed after having public hearings.

missoulacurrent.com

In order to combat this chicanery, we need to get the average Montana citizen to be as upset about this as we are. Op-ed pieces in your local paper are one way to do that. Showing up at campaign events and town halls for the representatives that voted for this is another. Ask them the hard questions. Why did you support a bill that overrode the will of the people and I-161? Why did you support a bill that had recorded 10:1 support against it at the time it passed? Why did you support a bill that was killed by the committee tasked with evaluating FWP issues? Why did you support a bill that was buried in another bill at the very last minute with no public notice or input and very little debate (after it was killed in its committee)? Do you think this is the way our representatives should govern? Are you representing your constituents or special interests like MOGA?

The average Montana citizen may have various opinions about the substance of this bill or simply not care. However, given the politically conservative nature of the citizenry of MT, I think they could get pretty fired up over the sleazy and unethical way that this bill was rammed through the process. We need to shine a big spotlight on that and make sure as many people as possible see what happened here.

As a NR, there’s limits to what I can personally do. But as a property owner and someone who spends significant time (and money, despite what MOGA wants people to believe!) in Montana, I care deeply and plan to “show up” to continue to fight against this.

Thanks to Andrew, Randy and all the HT’ers who have taken action throughout this whole process. We lost a battle, but should not concede the war. We need to continue to fight this and begin setting the table for a different outcome down the road - whether that be by Citizens’ Initiative or changing the makeup of the government to folks who are more “representative”. A key element to that is making sure the average Montana citizen understands what happened here. That will give us a louder voice to hopefully drown out MOGA’s sleazy backroom tactics.

Fight on!

 

[Gerald Martin]

To late

Not too late. I know a legislator who who agrees the moratorium on new outfitters licenses is unfair to Montana residents who want to profit from wildlife. Expect some language inserted into an existing bill that will require all applications in 2021 to be approved.

We just want help spread out the pressure....

 

[Eric Albus]

Not too late. I know a legislator who who agrees the moratorium on new outfitters licenses is unfair to Montana residents who want to profit from wildlife. Expect some language inserted into an existing bill that will require all applications in 2021 to be approved.

We just want help spread out the pressure....

It is to late, for anyone who was not booked with an outfitter to receive license.

There is no moratorium on outfitter license, unless something new happed that I’m unaware of

 

[BuzzH]

It is to late, for anyone who was not booked with an outfitter to receive license.

There is no moratorium on outfitter license, unless something new happed that I’m unaware of

Glad to see you and MOGA really care about the resource...

Try justifying the biological reason for another 3K outfitter licenses.

No more whining from you about big-game management, profits took priority over that in a hurry.

 

[Eric Albus]

Glad to see you and MOGA really care about the resource...

Try justifying the biological reason for another 3K outfitter licenses.

No more whining from you about big-game management, profits took priority over that in a hurry.

If I put profit first and resource 2nd, I'd be out of business.