Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[MTGomer]

I've had this same experience just shows how mismanaged that agency truly is. I personally have spent a fortune in MT over the years all DIY. Not to mention a small fortune I left behind in threeforks at that wonderful restaurant.

Careful what you eat there.

 

[Southern Elk]

I've had this same experience just shows how mismanaged that agency truly is. I personally have spent a fortune in MT over the years all DIY. Not to mention a small fortune I left behind in threeforks at that wonderful restaurant.

I know a guy who says they have the best chicken wings.

 

[Drake4]

What a joke MOGA is becoming. I would actually be embarrassed to be associated with them. Their defense and reasoning behind this bill is comical at best.

 

[Eric Albus]

windgypsy asked: This whole deal about the draw odds not changing for NR.. how do they figure a diy NR’s draw odds don’t change when they take up to 60% of the tags out of the pool being applied for? All their clients they were worried about not getting tags could get those tags without competing with us but somehow that doesn’t impact our odds?

Eric, can you explain this logic?

We won't get 60%, outfitters have been roughly taking 30-40% of the license, IF(big if) we wind up bargained down to 40 or 50% the unused/unsold license will revert into the general draw pool. Outfitters are not going to expand, even with huge undersells 6-8 years ago we did not expand or grow or lease more acres.

Randy, if the executive director of our trade organization (Mac Minard) did not write a letter in support of this I, as a board member, would recommend firing him. I have not seen or heard of any dark money coming from NR's to support this bill. I think there is no "there" there.


To whomever asked about being able to figure out how to use the system we have and be successful;

There are many of us that use the current system and are surviving. Those of us who its working for are older and established outfitters. I have a large client base and had to essentially double my client numbers to make up for the draw. I have people who come every 2nd and 3rd year and are on a rotation. This does not work for younger less established business'.

Unfortunately I must be gone from computer for a few days, duty calls an I must go to the other ranch and take care of some business, so if you ask a question and get no response that is why.

 

[Derek44]

JLS, you have it figured right, NR fishing is a bigger business than hunting, as they take multiple many times the number of clients hunting outfitters take. Hunting alone is a 350 million dollar injection into Montana's economy. The university that did the study uses a multiplier of 7 to figure how many times that dollar is spent, so actual figure is 350 divided by 7. It fairly easy to figure out, there are about 8000 NR license holders booking hunts with outfitters, take this at a $6500 average and do the math and use the university multiplier of 7.
6500 is probably a little low when you figure total expenditure. The university lumped hunting clients into their study and did not do a stand alone.

Whomever made the comment(think is was walker?) "lets be honest, DIY NR's spend very little" you were very correct. I have talked with a lot of NR DIY guys and asked them how much they were spending on their trip to Mt. "Way to much" was the resounding comment, by the time we get home, counting license $1200(lowest) to $2200 (highest). Most brought all their gas/groceries/camper/tents from Wa. Mn. and so on. Thank you to those who do stay at local motels and eat at local diners and restaurants, we who live in Montana appreciate it.

If this passes the DIY NR is the loser as is the absentee NR landowner, I can see no downside to the resident hunter. Most(not all) of the hunters going with an outfitter are not competing with Mt. Resident hunters on accessible lands. That said there are still to many NR and Resident hunters pounding accessible land, and that needs addressed. The management of wildlife in Montana needs an overhaul.

If passed this bill will help to keep family business' viable. Most Montana outfitters are Montana born and raised. We have families and strong ties to our communities. We do give back, check out our Big Hearts Under the Big Sky program(feel free to make a donation). Montana outfitters donate hunts to every sportsman's group from DU to RMEF. I have personally donated many hunts to DU, MDF, SCI, PF, and several others over the last 20 years.

I’m not here to argue with you over the good/bad of the bill, because it’s pretty obvious you’re not interested in hearing anyone else’s point of view. Your mind is already made up and that’s great for you. Love conviction. I do have to point out however, that I’m pretty sure not many of the WA residents you speak of brought along their own gas from WA for their trip. I’m from WA and gas prices are higher here, so if they did, they need to rethink their strategies. Or maybe you are just pulling arguments out of nowhere in a futile attempt to support your opinion here. When falsehoods are stated like this, it really starts to take away from the believability of an argument. My personal stance is this will be a bad bill for MT economy, as well as resident and non resident hunters alike. It is a very dangerous precedent.

 

[Derek44]

Ben Lamb said : "2.) These family businesses are a $350 million industry, according to your studies. There are no other family businesses that are requiring a gov't mandated client base to do their job. I'm thankful you donated those hunts, and Big Hearts is a great program, but to try and lay all of that out as some kind of benevolence when it's really marketing & PR work is again a cheap ploy to pull at heartstrings. Are you going to tell us kids will starve next."

This does in no way give a Gov't mandated client base. We still must first find a client willing to purchase our services and then buy a high price license. There is no mandate of clientele. I look at it the same way as I do couch on a showroom floor. Does anybody want to win a lottery in order to purchase a couch?

Ben, Randy, both of you understand that there is no expectation of 60% of the license. My guess is that it will be bargained down to 40% (this number matches current use by NR outfitted clients).

It also does nothing to address the real problem, which is management of wildlife. Hopefully a new Gov. and Commission will look to manage wildlife biologically in the state.

The number should be zero!! I’m just curious Eric, and this question is definitely not meant to derail the discussion, but why should ANY government have ANY say whatsoever in how many people must use a particular PRIVATE service in order to utilize a public resource? I tell you what, I really wouldn’t like it, but it would make more sense to me if they just eliminated 60% of the NR tags. That would tell me, right or wrong, that at least it was about resource management, but to just say that 60% of successful applicants are required to spend additional money in one private sector industry in order to even utilize they’re tag is nothing but straight attempting to legislate a subsidy into that industry. There is no other explanation

 

[kingderek]

Appreciate folks weighing in on this thing, sent the committee my thoughts (some of which were based on observations on this forum), together with the senator and representative in my district.

 

[Buffs35]

I can see your point 406. After further study on this I don't know that this license will have much of a dent on the NR draw(been doing some draw odds figuring, I should have done this first, then I may not have made the claim it will hurt the DIY NR, or absentee landowner, not sure I like that but it is what it is).

These are not new license being created. These come out of the same NR pool. Outfitters have been enjoying a near 100% draw so odds will remain roughly the same. We are NOT going to get 60% of the take, I hear that it has already been lowered to 50% and we won't use that much(if we get this). If we do get 50% in an early draw the unsubscribed go into the general pool to the "unwashed masses" as Randy called them, keeping draw odds roughly the same. The biggest downside for the DIY NR is the CPI, 3% increase annually in license price. This will knock out the "unwashed masses" faster than anything. By 2025 B-11's will cost $1300+. This is what the pro 161 crowd asked for. Unintended consequence? Or very contrived?

I highly doubt your stance on whether this will make a dent on NR tags, but even if it didn't, I'm just not the type of guy that would start dating a woman if I knew future relations would not only be supervised by her father, he'd also show me how to do it.

The whole point of public diy is self discovery, not paying an unwanted babysitter.

 

[BrinkOutWest]

Just sent an e-mail to each senator. My wife and I are moving to Montana in June. I purchased a preference point last year to increase my likelihood of drawing a combo tag for my first season living in the mountains. I'm forced to apply for a nonresident tag since we can't claim residency until there for 6 months (December 2021). As it turns out, now I might not even be able to draw a tag altogether. Pay taxes, contribute to the community, buy a home, a truck and act a producer/consumer on a daily basis within the state.. and yet now I might get to sit out another year. Cool.

 

[Pucky Freak]

I have people who come every 2nd and 3rd year and are on a rotation. This does not work for younger less established business'.

It works well enough for outfitters in states where tags can only be drawn once every few years. Maybe the struggling MT outfitters should contact the large number of outfitters in other states who maintain a viable business with a rotating client base to learn how it's done.

One of the biggest ironies of this bill is that it's stated intention is to "stabilize" the industry, yet the means in doing so:
A. involves a direct repudiation of 161, which will very likely spring up again in a new iteration if/when this thing passes, and
B. is a power grab with the republican party currently holding a delicate majority, that can just as easily be undone when the wind shifts in the other direction.

What happens when the "stability" achieved by a deeply unpopular bill gets thrown out and you're back to the drawing board in 2 years?

Seriously, rather than just throw out a knee-jerk a solution that makes the government spoon feed you (I must have a gov't subsidy to succeed in life...), why not focus on a longer term solution that makes it a win for everyone?

Imagine a MT where the resident elk tag is $50, with the extra $30 solely funding a resource commission, run by scientists and hunters, who manage wildlife scientifically and create abundant hunting access? Imagine discarding the most convoluted hunting regulations of any state and replacing with a simple and easily understood document. If there are plenty of animals to hunt, and access to them, we aren't stuck trying to legislate "tiny apple eating".

I weigh in on this because I am a DIY hunter in other states. Halve MT DIY opportunity and all that demand shifts elsewhere, further raising prices and accelerating the exclusion of hunters on the bottom edge of participation by pricing them out of the game. The future of North American hunting heritage rests on the shoulders of DIY hunters more than any other group. Either MOGA is ignorant to this, or its members really just care far more about pulling political strings for personal benefit than they do about the very subject of their business.

If you peruse old HT threads I think you'd be surprised by the large # of referrals made by primarily DIY hunters for outfitters. They have a valued place in American hunting. The great thing about capitalism is everyone has an opportunity to create value in a service when taking into account market factors. There's no reason you can't innovate to the point of hunters busting down your door to sign up for a guided hunt.

 

[Jb89]

This is truly amazing. Sounds like most of you want to run our public lands into the ground and you don’t even pay taxes here. Double maskers if you will. “I’m a public landowner” lol maybe in your state. Elk are on private land now more then ever, for a reason. It’s not even comparable to when there were guaranteed outfitter tags over a decade ago. Huh I wonder why? Human pressure with the help of predators that had the help of humans. Some people have gained monetarily as well as built notoriety by publicizing our public lands as well. Seems slimy to me. Our public lands have become inundated with people. Non residents, old residents, new residents but no new guides? Really the same allotments and usage for guides on BLM, state and forest going back decades. It’s people. Masses of people being sold the public land dream. Why are outfitters that take clients on private hunt miles from public painted with this broad brush as villains. Those clients that have one week and save all year to hunt instead of going on a cruise are now rich elites? When is the last time any of you talked to a outfitters or guides from a neutral position??? How about the guide who lost 10-15% of client draw the past few years pre COVID due to an excess of the diy non residents that show up with no plan? Thaycall an outfitter while there here poking for information because they seen more hunters and kennetrek tacks than elk or elk tracks. Or the outfitter who lost multiple groups last year to COVID. What about him? Meanwhile his yearly loyal clients spend a pile of money in those communities. Most of which being processing and taxidermy. Two things most nr diy hunters do not invest in Montana by and large. Never Mind guide employment and those clients spending money in town during the week at motels, cafes and sporting stores. That money does stay in those areas. I think loyalty to our wildlife and residents should take precedence over diy non residents. It’s a privledge to hunt here as a non resident. Give the guide industry some better footing, allow our clogged public ground some room to breath for our tax paying locals, wildlife and those lucky 40% diy non residents. The numbers also don’t indicate that nr diy are going to be losing out on the draw like some are propagating. How many already go to outfitters? Now your guaranteeing you have a 40% chance of coming here as a nr diy hunter. Every other year most likely. That’s not good enough? There are other states you can hunt. You don’t just have to hammer Montana. If you want to hunt here every year, then move here and participate in our year round economy, instead of taking a natural resource from us for a fraction of the cost and head back home. Maybe if this passed those elk will jump back over the fence on public and I won’t run into a guy from the Midwest on the county rd disgruntled because he had no idea there would be that many people at a trailhead in Montana. “Seems like Colorado up here” he says. There is something for all of us in this bill. I hope it passes

 

[MTGomer]

If the resource is as stressed as people say it is, cut tags. Get rid of some of the 17k NR combos.
Put residents on a draw too, like almost every other state. Make residents pick a season, pick a unit.

You don’t privatize the public resource because there is too many people using it, you make some sort of effort
to manage it.

 

[WIbiggame]

“I’m a public landowner” lol maybe in your state.

National Forest's and Wilderness Areas to my knowledge are federally owned there yes I am a public owner.

Some people have gained monetarily as well as built notoriety by publicizing our public lands as well. Seems slimy to me.

You mean like an outfitter taking clients on these public lands?

It’s a privledge to hunt here as a non resident

About the only sentence I can even come close to agreeing with. It is a HUGE PRIVILEGE and we all DIY or Outfitted should have the same chance at being able to enjoy that privilege. By giving 60% of the tags to Outiftters you are saying it's their RIGHT that their clients get the tags and get to hunt there.

Now your guaranteeing you have a 40% chance of coming here as a nr diy hunter. Every other year most likely. That’s not good enough?

Doesn't work that way, DIY would have 40% of the tags so for elk that would be 6800 tags. A total of 23000 people applied for those tags so actually would be dropping the likely hood of drawing to 29.5%. Down from about 74% as it stands now.

If you want to hunt here every year, then move here

Or just go with an outfitter right? Also if the outfitters aren't happy with their clients not getting tags they can move to NM or ID or WY that have places and tags set aside for outfitters.

 

[Wildabeest]

This is truly amazing. Sounds like most of you want to run our public lands into the ground and you don’t even pay taxes here. Double maskers if you will. “I’m a public landowner” lol maybe in your state. Elk are on private land now more then ever, for a reason. It’s not even comparable to when there were guaranteed outfitter tags over a decade ago. Huh I wonder why? Human pressure with the help of predators that had the help of humans. Some people have gained monetarily as well as built notoriety by publicizing our public lands as well. Seems slimy to me. Our public lands have become inundated with people. Non residents, old residents, new residents but no new guides? Really the same allotments and usage for guides on BLM, state and forest going back decades. It’s people. Masses of people being sold the public land dream. Why are outfitters that take clients on private hunt miles from public painted with this broad brush as villains. Those clients that have one week and save all year to hunt instead of going on a cruise are now rich elites? When is the last time any of you talked to a outfitters or guides from a neutral position??? How about the guide who lost 10-15% of client draw the past few years pre COVID due to an excess of the diy non residents that show up with no plan? Thaycall an outfitter while there here poking for information because they seen more hunters and kennetrek tacks than elk or elk tracks. Or the outfitter who lost multiple groups last year to COVID. What about him? Meanwhile his yearly loyal clients spend a pile of money in those communities. Most of which being processing and taxidermy. Two things most nr diy hunters do not invest in Montana by and large. Never Mind guide employment and those clients spending money in town during the week at motels, cafes and sporting stores. That money does stay in those areas. I think loyalty to our wildlife and residents should take precedence over diy non residents. It’s a privledge to hunt here as a non resident. Give the guide industry some better footing, allow our clogged public ground some room to breath for our tax paying locals, wildlife and those lucky 40% diy non residents. The numbers also don’t indicate that nr diy are going to be losing out on the draw like some are propagating. How many already go to outfitters? Now your guaranteeing you have a 40% chance of coming here as a nr diy hunter. Every other year most likely. That’s not good enough? There are other states you can hunt. You don’t just have to hammer Montana. If you want to hunt here every year, then move here and participate in our year round economy, instead of taking a natural resource from us for a fraction of the cost and head back home. Maybe if this passed those elk will jump back over the fence on public and I won’t run into a guy from the Midwest on the county rd disgruntled because he had no idea there would be that many people at a trailhead in Montana. “Seems like Colorado up here” he says. There is something for all of us in this bill. I hope it passes

So I take it from this response that you are only guiding resident hunters? If not, then you need to get down off your high horse and realize that allocating 60% of NR tags to outfitters does absolutely nothing to address all of the NR issues you bring up. What an asinine response.

 

[tjones]

This is truly amazing. Sounds like most of you want to run our public lands into the ground and you don’t even pay taxes here. Double maskers if you will. “I’m a public landowner” lol maybe in your state. Elk are on private land now more then ever, for a reason. It’s not even comparable to when there were guaranteed outfitter tags over a decade ago. Huh I wonder why? Human pressure with the help of predators that had the help of humans. Some people have gained monetarily as well as built notoriety by publicizing our public lands as well. Seems slimy to me. Our public lands have become inundated with people. Non residents, old residents, new residents but no new guides? Really the same allotments and usage for guides on BLM, state and forest going back decades. It’s people. Masses of people being sold the public land dream. Why are outfitters that take clients on private hunt miles from public painted with this broad brush as villains. Those clients that have one week and save all year to hunt instead of going on a cruise are now rich elites? When is the last time any of you talked to a outfitters or guides from a neutral position??? How about the guide who lost 10-15% of client draw the past few years pre COVID due to an excess of the diy non residents that show up with no plan? Thaycall an outfitter while there here poking for information because they seen more hunters and kennetrek tacks than elk or elk tracks. Or the outfitter who lost multiple groups last year to COVID. What about him? Meanwhile his yearly loyal clients spend a pile of money in those communities. Most of which being processing and taxidermy. Two things most nr diy hunters do not invest in Montana by and large. Never Mind guide employment and those clients spending money in town during the week at motels, cafes and sporting stores. That money does stay in those areas. I think loyalty to our wildlife and residents should take precedence over diy non residents. It’s a privledge to hunt here as a non resident. Give the guide industry some better footing, allow our clogged public ground some room to breath for our tax paying locals, wildlife and those lucky 40% diy non residents. The numbers also don’t indicate that nr diy are going to be losing out on the draw like some are propagating. How many already go to outfitters? Now your guaranteeing you have a 40% chance of coming here as a nr diy hunter. Every other year most likely. That’s not good enough? There are other states you can hunt. You don’t just have to hammer Montana. If you want to hunt here every year, then move here and participate in our year round economy, instead of taking a natural resource from us for a fraction of the cost and head back home. Maybe if this passed those elk will jump back over the fence on public and I won’t run into a guy from the Midwest on the county rd disgruntled because he had no idea there would be that many people at a trailhead in Montana. “Seems like Colorado up here” he says. There is something for all of us in this bill. I hope it passes

Anybody else read the same sentence 3 times and then give up?

 

[Gerald Martin]

You guys are too hard on outfitters wanting government guarantees of customers to stabilize their businesses. I think it’s a great idea.

Just like it’s a great idea to pass legislation to cap the total number of residential contractors here in Bozeman and then require anyone wanting to buy building materials to be a customer of a licensed contractor before they can buy from a lumberyard.
Finding good paying customers can be a hassle what with all the competition and DIY home builders. Please Mr. Legislators, pass some of that business protection for me.....

 

[timmy]

Jb89 that was an epic rant. Every body has their interests Newberg, outfitters, residents, non-residents, and fish and game all looking out for themselves. Unfortunately it comes at the expense of game management or lack there of and it will not change in the foreseeable future even if this stupid bill were to pass. Seems like nobody actually cares about the resource as long as they get what they want.

 

[mxracer317]

This is truly amazing. Sounds like most of you want to run our public lands into the ground and you don’t even pay taxes here. Double maskers if you will. “I’m a public landowner” lol maybe in your state. Elk are on private land now more then ever, for a reason. It’s not even comparable to when there were guaranteed outfitter tags over a decade ago. Huh I wonder why? Human pressure with the help of predators that had the help of humans. Some people have gained monetarily as well as built notoriety by publicizing our public lands as well. Seems slimy to me. Our public lands have become inundated with people. Non residents, old residents, new residents but no new guides? Really the same allotments and usage for guides on BLM, state and forest going back decades. It’s people. Masses of people being sold the public land dream. Why are outfitters that take clients on private hunt miles from public painted with this broad brush as villains. Those clients that have one week and save all year to hunt instead of going on a cruise are now rich elites? When is the last time any of you talked to a outfitters or guides from a neutral position??? How about the guide who lost 10-15% of client draw the past few years pre COVID due to an excess of the diy non residents that show up with no plan? Thaycall an outfitter while there here poking for information because they seen more hunters and kennetrek tacks than elk or elk tracks. Or the outfitter who lost multiple groups last year to COVID. What about him? Meanwhile his yearly loyal clients spend a pile of money in those communities. Most of which being processing and taxidermy. Two things most nr diy hunters do not invest in Montana by and large. Never Mind guide employment and those clients spending money in town during the week at motels, cafes and sporting stores. That money does stay in those areas. I think loyalty to our wildlife and residents should take precedence over diy non residents. It’s a privledge to hunt here as a non resident. Give the guide industry some better footing, allow our clogged public ground some room to breath for our tax paying locals, wildlife and those lucky 40% diy non residents. The numbers also don’t indicate that nr diy are going to be losing out on the draw like some are propagating. How many already go to outfitters? Now your guaranteeing you have a 40% chance of coming here as a nr diy hunter. Every other year most likely. That’s not good enough? There are other states you can hunt. You don’t just have to hammer Montana. If you want to hunt here every year, then move here and participate in our year round economy, instead of taking a natural resource from us for a fraction of the cost and head back home. Maybe if this passed those elk will jump back over the fence on public and I won’t run into a guy from the Midwest on the county rd disgruntled because he had no idea there would be that many people at a trailhead in Montana. “Seems like Colorado up here” he says. There is something for all of us in this bill. I hope it passes

Are you a RMEF member? If so, check out the latest “Bugle” magazine to see how much revenue the state gets from NR licenses. Having all the facts might surprise you.

 

[shoots-straight]

Jb89 that was an epic rant. Every body has their interests Newberg, outfitters, residents, non-residents, and fish and game all looking out for themselves. Unfortunately it comes at the expense of game management or lack there of and it will not change in the foreseeable future even if this stupid bill were to pass. Seems like nobody actually cares about the resource as long as they get what they want.

Even though this is off topic, I'll let you know that the only time I see MOGA in Helena is when they have their hand out. Never do they show up for the resource. Never! I will give it to Eric, he at least claims to be in support of the wildlife he uses to make money from.

 

[El Jason]

Many of these non-resident landowners, their spouses, family members, and business associates have made the maximum allowed donations to many of the Montana legislators who are involved in this effort (quick Google searches can show this information in your state). Those maxed out donations come with a lot of strings. One of the strings is to make sure these non-residents can get a tag for them, family, and friends, even if they have to enter into a deal with an outfitter.

This is an influential group behind the scenes asking for this. These non-resident landowners are quiet and they have their agents doing their lobbying. They are smart and know the current optics of non-resident landowners seeking more elk tags in this environment.

This was quite common before I161 as well.