New Mexico Outfitter Draw Set-Aside is Toast -Finally !

[CMF]

75% or more of NonResidents applying in the outfitter pool will switch to the DIY NR pool

99% of the residents applying in the outfitter pool will switch to the DIY resident pool

So what do you think the other %25 of NR is going to do? And why?

Additional DIY non residents will apply because more hunt codes will be open to them and more net tags will garnish interest

What hunt codes are not available now that are going to suddenly bring someone in from the sidelines? I can see some fresh headlines drawing interest, but it's obvious that net tags in the pool aren't going to increase the odds of tags in hand for NR.

End result will probably be flat to slightly harder draw odds for DIY NR and flat to slightly easier draw odds for DIY residents

Even if your assumption is right, of only %75 NR in the outfitter pool switching to the diy pool(plus the additional that you assume), the math is clear, it will be much worse than "slightly harder" odds.

 

[5yearcoueshunter]

So what do you think the other %25 of NR is going to do? And why?


What hunt codes are not available now that are going to suddenly bring someone in from the sidelines? I can see some fresh headlines drawing interest, but it's obvious that net tags in the pool aren't going to increase the odds of tags in hand for NR.


Even if your assumption is right, of only %75 NR in the outfitter pool switching to the diy pool(plus the additional that you assume), the math is clear, it will be much worse than "slightly harder" odds.

I said 75% or more. My guess is you'll have some people in the guided pool drop out with lower draw odds and not wanting to pay the license fee to apply with no points gained on the investment.

Look at the hunts that are currently between 10 and 12 tags. Currently DIY NR have no chance at those, if it goes to 90/10, they will. Quite a few pronghorn tags like this.

NR DIY pool will get 4% more tags. 75% x 90% x 10% is 6.75%. So your right, odds will go down, slightly is relative i guess

 

[CMF]

Look at the hunts that are currently between 10 and 12 tags. Currently DIY NR have no chance at those, if it goes to 90/10, they will. Quite a few pronghorn tags like this.

Yea, I didn't think there were too many hunts like that. Pronghorn is the only one I don't always put in for. I do know Mcgregor range ES barbary is one of them. That would add a hunt that didn't previously exist. I even emailed the state and bio's about that hunt, because there are so many F/IM tags but not enough es tags that nr has a chance at a mature ram tag.
But anyway, I can't imagine more than a fraction of a percentage of people are going to suddenly jump in because of one tag on one hunt. Especially considering they could have applied for that hunt in the guided pool if it's a hunt they're really after.

NR DIY pool will get 4% more tags. 75% x 90% x 10% is 6.75%. So your right, odds will go down, slightly is relative i guess

If ~33% reduction is "slightly" to you, then I suppose you're right.
Maybe you missed the math on the numbers from actual previous draw data in post #38...
Here's a piece of it

• Current situation (2026 actual results)Total tags issued: 60,719Nonresidents actually drew: 9,059 tags (≈14.92% of total)→ This came from the 6% DIY nonresident pool (≈3,643 tags) + the portion of the 10% guided pool that went to nonresidents (≈5,416 tags).
• New 90/10 structureResident pool: 90% = 54,647 tagsNonresident pool: 10% = 6,072 tags
• Key point: The total number of nonresident applicants does not change under your assumption. All previous nonresident applicants (DIY + guided) would now compete together in the single 10% nonresident pool.

Result for nonresidents:They would receive only 6,072 tags instead of 9,059 while facing the same number of applicants.

Their overall success rate (odds) would therefore drop to ≈67% of current odds (a reduction of about 33%). Exact calculation:6,072 ÷ 9,059 ≈ 0.670 (or 67.0%).



As this keeps getting branded as a "win for non-residents", and "more non-resident tags", I would wager that we would see a total increase in NR applicants as those on the sidelines think this might finally be their year to apply.

 

[WildWill]

So what if my terrible odds get a little more terrible in the NR DIY draw. Small price to pay IMO for getting rid of the outfitter draw. It's a absolute BS welfare system that helps private enterprises profit off a public resource. I understand why guy's use the outfitter draw to up their odds and I get it. I hate the game not the player. But other then "it helps my odds" or "it'll hurt my odd" I'm not hearing much else. Are odds really the biggest concern on this issue? How about it's a horrible system that flies in the face of the NAM and directly helps to monetize wildlife? Outfitters will still have plenty of clients from the draw, and landowner tags will still be available. The only change I see is middle men won't be able to make a profit from helping people cut in line.

 

[5yearcoueshunter]

So what if my terrible odds get a little more terrible in the NR DIY draw. Small price to pay IMO for getting rid of the outfitter draw. It's a absolute BS welfare system that helps private enterprises profit off a public resource. I understand why guy's use the outfitter draw to up their odds and I get it. I hate the game not the player. But other then "it helps my odds" or "it'll hurt my odd" I'm not hearing much else. Are odds really the biggest concern on this issue? How about it's a horrible system that flies in the face of the NAM and directly helps to monetize wildlife? Outfitters will still have plenty of clients from the draw, and landowner tags will still be available. The only change I see is middle men won't be able to make a profit from helping people cut in line.

Totally agree. Its not only the "welfare" system its also the abuse of that pool with the stupid 2 day rule.

 

[CMF]

It's a absolute BS welfare system that helps private enterprises profit off a public resource.

I agree with your statement.

So what if my terrible odds get a little more terrible in the NR DIY draw. Small price to pay IMO for getting rid of the outfitter draw.

I'm just pointing out that going to 90/10 will reduce NR odds. There are guys on this and other forums who are trying to sell 90/10 as a win for both sides, and that simply isn't true. An 85/15 split would be break-even for both sides, as that is how tags have been allocated in previous draws.

But other then "it helps my odds" or "it'll hurt my odd" I'm not hearing much else. Are odds really the biggest concern on this issue?

Yes. Odds are the issue that is driving this. Residents not drawing tags is the issue driving this. The outfitter pool is the lowest-hanging fruit to go after.

Outfitters will still have plenty of clients from the draw

If outfitters have the same number of clients when this shakes out, then what really is accomplished? If it goes to a 90/10 split and outfitters have the same number of clients, the only loser is NR's and their odds.

The only change I see is middle men won't be able to make a profit from helping people cut in line.

I assume you're talking about the 2-day guide?
I agree, it's a little BS.
But if the alternative is giving up 3,000 or 1/3 of the NR tags just to do away with it, then I'd rather stick to what we have.

 

[5yearcoueshunter]

I agree with your statement.

I'm just pointing out that going to 90/10 will reduce NR odds. There are guys on this and other forums who are trying to sell 90/10 as a win for both sides, and that simply isn't true. An 85/15 split would be break-even for both sides, as that is how tags have been allocated in previous draws.

Yes. Odds are the issue that is driving this. Residents not drawing tags is the issue driving this. The outfitter pool is the lowest-hanging fruit to go after.

If outfitters have the same number of clients when this shakes out, then what really is accomplished? If it goes to a 90/10 split and outfitters have the same number of clients, the only loser is NR's and their odds.


I assume you're talking about the 2-day guide?
I agree, it's a little BS.
But if the alternative is giving up 3,000 or 1/3 of the NR tags just to do away with it, then I'd rather stick to what we have.

If this is being sold to the DIY NR as a better chance to get a tag or better odds, I would agree with you that it's false advertising. However the facts are that there will be more DIY NR net tags, more available hunts and it will be "more fair". You dont get better odds by paying for it by using an outfitter and that just sits better with most people. But let's be honest, this change is 99% about more resident tags, no reason to pretend otherwise.

 

[gwhunter]

Ill give a case example of 1 non-resident hunter who has applied in NM for the last 10 years. I drew Gila archery my first year ever applying in 2016. Have been applying for the 16s ever since. Always in the DIY pool.

As my job and disposable income has increased my availability to apply in more states and for more tags, I strongly considered applying in the guided pool this year. With a guide who was offering the 2-day minimum, non-outfitted, guide pool option for $1,600. I now have no problem applying for a Utah elk tag that's $2k at this point in my life. I am for sure applying with the "guide" next year in New Mexico. $1,600 plus the $998/$773, while not a negligible increase over Utah, still is within range for me. That "extra" 600 bucks over Utah buys me 2 days with a person who is familiar with the unit and can provide a ton of pointers and direction for a tag I may only draw every 5-10 years. Worth it to me. In some units it triples my odds to draw a tag.

If they got rid of the outfitter pool after I switched to doing this, I would hop right back over to the NR DIY pool.

Ill also add, my income doesn't allow me to do a $10k completely outfitted hunt, nor would I want to do something other than DIY, even if I had the money.

 

[seeth07]

With a guide who was offering the 2-day minimum, non-outfitted, guide pool option for $1,600.

I found the same thing for just a little less in the unit we applied for and the odds for that hunt tag were almost exactly triple as well. The agreement wasn't exactly for "2 days guided" but more like an "invite to hunt camp". Where the elk actually are in September is also about 100 miles away from that camp.

 

[gwhunter]

I found the same thing for just a little less in the unit we applied for and the odds for that hunt tag were almost exactly triple as well. The agreement wasn't exactly for "2 days guided" but more like an "invite to hunt camp". Where the elk actually are in September is also about 100 miles away from that camp.

Yeah, the one I was looking at also wasn't a "we'll guide you all day" but more of a "we'll touch base in the morning and evening and offer you suggestions" while you share camp with us(in order to meet the requirementsfor the 2 day "guided hunt"). But for the price, the increase in draw odds and getting to be around people from the area that are willing to divulge their intel, it seems like a good bang for the buck.

 

[rmyoung1]

Yeah, the one I was looking at also wasn't a "we'll guide you all day" but more of a "we'll touch base in the morning and evening and offer you suggestions" while you share camp with us(in order to meet the requirementsfor the 2 day "guided hunt"). But for the price, the increase in draw odds and getting to be around people from the area that are willing to divulge their intel, it seems like a good bang for the buck.

This story offers tremendous justification for my view that the guided pool should go away, regardless of impact to NR draw odds.

 

[seeth07]

This is story offers tremendous justification for my view that the guided pool should go away, regardless of impact to NR draw odds.

Absolutely. It is ridiculous that they can easily make 1-2k off of these offers to get clients x3 draw odds without doing anything other than signing and submitting a piece of paper. I didn't believe it could be done until I heard about this and jumped in on it. Still didn't draw unfortunately.

 

[Drake4]

This is story offers tremendous justification for my view that the guided pool should go away, regardless of impact to NR draw odds.

This x100

 

[brownbear932008]

Yeah, the one I was looking at also wasn't a "we'll guide you all day" but more of a "we'll touch base in the morning and evening and offer you suggestions" while you share camp with us(in order to meet the requirementsfor the 2 day "guided hunt"). But for the price, the increase in draw odds and getting to be around people from the area that are willing to divulge their intel, it seems like a good bang for the buck.

I'm not sure this is legal and meets the two day guide requirement if the guide isn't going afield with the hunter. It requires two days being the first two days of the season and they must be with the client while afield hunting.

 

[WildWill]

If outfitters have the same number of clients when this shakes out, then what really is accomplished?


I assume you're talking about the 2-day guide?
I agree, it's a little BS.

Getting rid of the BS welfare system and the bad actors associated with it sounds like plenty to me.



And yes I was. Like others on this thread I've had some greasy offers from NM outfitters.

 

[seeth07]

I'm not sure this is legal and meets the two day guide requirement if the guide isn't going afield with the hunter. It requires two days being the first two days of the season and they must be with the client while afield hunting.

It does not need to be the first two days of the season but does need to be two days before the tag holder can venture off on their own.

The definition of "accompanied" is in the snip I have provided below. "In the field" can simply just mean "sitting in camp" at some location within the unit with the registered guide/outfitter.

 

[WapitiBob]

I'm not sure this is legal and meets the two day guide requirement if the guide isn't going afield with the hunter. It requires two days being the first two days of the season and they must be with the client while afield hunting.

Seems pretty clear to me; Accompanied shall mean that the outfitter or their registered guide physically escorts the hunter-client in the field during the hunter-client’s license hunt dates.

Pretty hard to physically escort a hunter if the guide is 10 miles away.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Let’s stop pretending NM is the only western State we apply for DIY big game tags. A win against outfitter welfare anywhere is a win for all of us. It slows momentum for outfitter welfare cancer in MT, WY, and elsewhere. The collective math favors both residents and DIY.

 

[David58]

They are all going for those glory tags across the board and wonder why they can't draw. Every single western state has those idiots and want to blame someone but themselves. If your household isn't drawing tags as a resident in NM one may need to look in the mirror. I giggle trolling through FB post every single draw cycle at those types.

You are not fully versed in what you speak. Yes, the smart folks put in for a high demand hunt for choice 1, but choices 2 and 3 are normally put in on lower quality hunts.

With landowner tags being sold, you will still see almost 50% of tags going to NRs.

This thing isn't hurting the outfitters but just a tiny bit, and those that think things will change in a significant way in NM will find they have been fooled.

David
ID

 

[Valley1320]

This thing isn't hurting the outfitters but just a tiny bit, and those that think things will change in a significant way in NM will find they have been fooled.

David
ID

Some of the outfitters on Facebook are acting like it's the end of the world. Biggest bunch of cry babies I've seen yet