ND HB 1151

[brocksw]

HB 1151 (baiting bill) passed the house with flying colors (76-18).

 

[NDGuy]

At least the children will be safe to hunt now

 

[DGND]

Headed for the Senate. Some of the needless amendments are going to be stripped off.

Clean Bill:

The Department shall not issue rules or adopt a policy or practice prohibiting the baiting of deer for lawful hunting on private property.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

At least the children will be safe to hunt now

Always remember the children.

 

[wct12]

Then you should direct your ire at the governor and not ask the legislature to write laws to restrict the NDGF. Look around at other states that have had their legislatures insert themselves into game management.

Be careful what you wish for. You love to complain about the management in MT. What you are pushing in ND is the first step toward managing like MT.

What happens when the ND game and fish tries to write laws that restrict the public? They tried twice in 07 and 09 to pass a baiting ban and it failed both times, but then was back doored into the CWD proclamation which the governor then signs in. The governor and lt governor have had multiple emails and phone calls made about this over reach by an agency with an appointed director with little to no response.

The problem is that the game and fish have 0 accountability. Who holds them accountable for herd eradicating 52 deer, throwing them in a dumpster instead of donating meat and then 0 deer come pack positive from their testing.

Who holds them accountable from moving away from testing in 3f2, the best in state study unit? (I know, less frequent but more extensive testing.. They can hardly get 5% of heads turned in).

Who holds them accountable when they turn a public meeting into a private, 1 way conversation where questions can't even been asked and concerns can't be voice in a group setting?

The governor has never held them accountable, or even held their feet to the fire for answers on those topics. Its always been sportsmen that are demanding answers.

The state wildlife vet asked at the CWD specific meeting asked if a bait amount restriction would be a fair compromise because he thinks it would to which sportsmen and women (in the small groups we had to break down in to ask questions) agreed that would be fair, and then comes out in his testimony to the subcommittee and says that it's not a compromise they would be willing to make when he brought it up.

I'm all for less governing and less rules.. But someone needs to be the checks and balances when the governor won't step in and do it, and this is the only way "we the people" have that ability currently, and we made sure of that through how the right to hunt amendment was put in our state constitution.

 

[wct12]

Even libertarian leaning Port calls this for what it is:

Port: The lipstick won't do this pig of a deer baiting bill any good

"This bill is political retribution against wildlife officials that, if implemented, will diminish protections for our state's wildlife populations to the detriment of all who enjoy the outdoors."

www.grandforksherald.com

Port is socially very liberal.. He claims to be fiscally conservative so maybe that's how he can claim to be libertarian leaning.. But on stances like this and many others in the state, he leans one way way harder than libertarian (I think the libertarian way technically would be to abolish the game and fish, not give them more, unchecked powers)

 

[rogerthat]

What happens when the ND game and fish tries to write laws that restrict the public? They tried twice in 07 and 09 to pass a baiting ban and it failed both times, but then was back doored into the CWD proclamation which the governor then signs in. The governor and lt governor have had multiple emails and phone calls made about this over reach by an agency with an appointed director with little to no response.

The problem is that the game and fish have 0 accountability. Who holds them accountable for herd eradicating 52 deer, throwing them in a dumpster instead of donating meat and then 0 deer come pack positive from their testing.

Who holds them accountable from moving away from testing in 3f2, the best in state study unit? (I know, less frequent but more extensive testing.. They can hardly get 5% of heads turned in).

Who holds them accountable when they turn a public meeting into a private, 1 way conversation where questions can't even been asked and concerns can't be voice in a group setting?

The governor has never held them accountable, or even held their feet to the fire for answers on those topics. Its always been sportsmen that are demanding answers.

The state wildlife vet asked at the CWD specific meeting asked if a bait amount restriction would be a fair compromise because he thinks it would to which sportsmen and women (in the small groups we had to break down in to ask questions) agreed that would be fair, and then comes out in his testimony to the subcommittee and says that it's not a compromise they would be willing to make when he brought it up.

I'm all for less governing and less rules.. But someone needs to be the checks and balances when the governor won't step in and do it, and this is the only way "we the people" have that ability currently, and we made sure of that through how the right to hunt amendment was put in our state constitution.

Cry me a river and go ice fish for walleyes. You should deal with Mt fwp for a year or two. It would give you an appreciation for what you got. The legislature isn’t the way to fix your game and fish. You will see that eventually.

 

[wct12]

Cry me a river and go ice fish for walleyes. You should deal with Mt fwp for a year or two. It would give you an appreciation for what you got. The legislature isn’t the way to fix your game and fish. You will see that eventually.

Seems like your legislature is trying to take some steps in the right direction trying to swing the pendulum from what I'm seeing on other forums in here.

Imagine an anti-hunting/trapping governor appointing an anti hunting/trapping fish and wildlife director, and only allowing the governor (who in this scenario is also anti hunting/trapping) as the checks and balances...

I'm all for less government, but the best we can do is keep our government agencies in check at this point it seems, and the people of North Dakota are stepping up and doing that the only way they can.

 

[8andcounting]

What happens when the ND game and fish tries to write laws that restrict the public? They tried twice in 07 and 09 to pass a baiting ban and it failed both times, but then was back doored into the CWD proclamation which the governor then signs in. The governor and lt governor have had multiple emails and phone calls made about this over reach by an agency with an appointed director with little to no response.

The problem is that the game and fish have 0 accountability. Who holds them accountable for herd eradicating 52 deer, throwing them in a dumpster instead of donating meat and then 0 deer come pack positive from their testing.

Who holds them accountable from moving away from testing in 3f2, the best in state study unit? (I know, less frequent but more extensive testing.. They can hardly get 5% of heads turned in).

Who holds them accountable when they turn a public meeting into a private, 1 way conversation where questions can't even been asked and concerns can't be voice in a group setting?

The governor has never held them accountable, or even held their feet to the fire for answers on those topics. Its always been sportsmen that are demanding answers.

The state wildlife vet asked at the CWD specific meeting asked if a bait amount restriction would be a fair compromise because he thinks it would to which sportsmen and women (in the small groups we had to break down in to ask questions) agreed that would be fair, and then comes out in his testimony to the subcommittee and says that it's not a compromise they would be willing to make when he brought it up.

I'm all for less governing and less rules.. But someone needs to be the checks and balances when the governor won't step in and do it, and this is the only way "we the people" have that ability currently, and we made sure of that through how the right to hunt amendment was put in our state constitution.

100% agreed

 

[GST]

For those suggesting it is a mistake to have the legislature involved in G&F issues …. ND has an initiated measure process whereby the people can create law or amend our state constitution

A few years back we did just that and there was significant input from the people in it’s writing and a point was made to include the words “ by law and regulation” in how the resource is managed for the public good This was done as a checks and balance for the people to have a voice

Hunting, trapping, and fishing and the taking of game and fish are a valued part of our heritage and will be forever preserved for the people and managed by law and regulation for the public good.

77% of the people of ND that voted voted to pass this amendment to our constitution

The legislature creates law …. The NDGF can not create law rather only regulation

So the PEOPLE of ND spoke and overwhelmingly voted for this amendment giving them a voice through the legislature how the resources of the state are managed

This bill exists because LEGISLATORS trying to work with the NDG&F to find a path forward repeatedly were told no by the G&F

These legislators representing thousands of sportsmen spoke directly with our governor who appoints the director of the G&F and were repeatedly dismissed

As a result this bill was brought forth

If you watch the sub committee hearings the NDG&F were asked if they could find a compromise path and they flat out said no … so the legislators are doing what our constitution directs them to be a checks and balance

This bill saw the most testimonies of any bill in the legislature this session 200

155 were in support
44 against
1 neutral

Ironically the same percentage (77%) the right to hunt amendment passed by

Ironically virtually the same percentage the House just passed this bill by (78%)

A significant number of those against were orgs that were affiliates of national orgs that give their members no grassroots method of having a say in their policies

The bottom line is this is a ND issue and NDans should be deciding it …. Not national orgs like Backcountry Hunters and Anglers ran by a guy that helped get Obama elected and over 75% of the people involved in this issue and their representatives speaking out are supporting this bill

 

[GST]

For those that think the NDGF can do no wrong …

For several years I asked for a deer herd management plan from the G&F at advisory meetings and was finally told they did not have one…nor could they provide deer count numbers from our unit or most others in the state

They next year they did have a written plan and the management goal for population was a herd 75,000 tags could control and maintain ( it is now 65,000 despite several million acres less of CRP)

Not long after this plan was adopted the NDGF were told at these advisory meetings they had a population explosion happening and yet they dismissed those ranchers seeing it happen first hand (6-700 deer in hay yards) all over our state

Within about 3 years the NDGF were giving out 145,000 tags … nearly TWICE the number of tags their management plan called for to maintain a healthy viable herd

This went on for 4-5 years until mother nature killed off literally thousands of deer across the state during that winter ….. of 07-08

The very next year 2009….. the first case of CWD was found in ND

The NDGF is in charge of managing population… no one else has that authority in ND

How does Ma nature deal with over population??? Starvation and disease

The NDGF allowed the states deer herd to grow beyond TWICE what their own management plan said was healthy for a number of years and the result…. Massive die offs from starvation in the winter….and CWD being found for the first time a year later … who answers for that?

 

[GST]

And yes CWD is real as are all prion diseases …. But here are the numbers

In 13 years with over 40,000 tests done…. Only one … 1….. a single lone deer has been found dead in the wild with CWD in ND

69 cases have been found in hunter harvested deer out of over 40,000 tests over 12 years .00017% positive rate …. More deer are killed in car crashes each year than hunters have with CWD in 12

The majority of those positives have came in the last 3 years from two units where hunting over bait has been banned for 12 years

And in those two units….( Prior to an EHD outbreak 2 summers ago) the deer herd population is GROWING

These numbers all come from the NDGF

Remember those 69 positives were healthy hunter harvested deer Only 1 deer has been found in the wild

A couple years ago the NDGF killed
50 some deer in one herd to test for CWD … the result… 0 positives … all the meat was thrown despite wanton waste regs …

The real fact is … the NDG&F has killed more deer in ND than CWD has

But the people of the state should just quietly sit back and let these professionals carry on with no accountability ….

 

[DGND]

Headed for the Senate. Some of the needless amendments are going to be stripped off.

Clean Bill:

The Department shall not issue rules or adopt a policy or practice prohibiting the baiting of deer for lawful hunting on private property.

Strike deer insert "big game species". In Section 20 of the ND Century Code, Elk Moose Deer are defined as "big game species."

 

[DGND]

And yes CWD is real as are all prion diseases …. But here are the numbers

In 13 years with over 40,000 tests done…. Only one … 1….. a single lone deer has been found dead in the wild with CWD in ND

69 cases have been found in hunter harvested deer out of over 40,000 tests over 12 years .00017% positive rate …. More deer are killed in car crashes each year than hunters have with CWD in 12

It was found beside a highway. Roadkill.

 

[CraneMan]

I have not seen a Thompson Twins concert forever! Their music still sucks as much as it ever did. We'll see how long it takes for it to get banned this time.

 

[GST]

I hope people can refrain from name calling and personal attacks and have a polite discussion

I am only here to share facts in a courteous manner on an issue that impacts sportsmen in ND

 

[brocksw]

What happens when the ND game and fish tries to write laws that restrict the public? They tried twice in 07 and 09 to pass a baiting ban and it failed both times, but then was back doored into the CWD proclamation which the governor then signs in. The governor and lt governor have had multiple emails and phone calls made about this over reach by an agency with an appointed director with little to no response.

Perhaps you're not familiar with Americas wildlife over the last century plus. Perhaps you aren't aware of the stories Roosevelt told about his time in North Dakota, the extirpation across much of the wildlife across the American west. Game and Fish agencies were putting moratoriums on certain critters up to a decade to recover populations.

The North Dakota deer harvest for 1941 was less than 3000 deer and hunters claimed it was the best deer season they've ever had. They had a total deer population for the state of less than 10k deer. We had 225 pronghorn in 1925, total, statewide. Sheep were locally extinct. Grizzly bears, locally extinct. Elk locally extinct. Waterfowl hammered.

This is all to say that restrictions on hunters is one of, if not the most effective way to be successful in wildlife management. Because "we the people", as you like to say when thinking the pro-baiting crowds speaks for everyone in the state, have proven that we cannot manage our wildlife ourselves. Controlling tag numbers, regulating methods of take, and season dates are just the first things that come to mind.

In this case, they aren't restricting the public. They're just restricting the practice baiting. And that concept has hurt a lot of feels in the baiting community.

"The mission of the North Dakota Game and Fish Department is to protect, conserve and enhance fish and wildlife populations and their habitat for sustained public consumptive and nonconsumptive use."

The problem is that the game and fish have 0 accountability. Who holds them accountable for herd eradicating 52 deer, throwing them in a dumpster instead of donating meat and then 0 deer come pack positive from their testing.

You are mistaking a lack of "accountability" for not getting your way. Many in the state wanted statewide baiting bans back in 2009. Was the GF not accountable to them? Many people currently want statewide, year round baiting AND feeding bans. Is the GF not accountable to them? Just because someone doesn't get their way, doesn't mean the GF isn't accountable to their mandated duties (in statute and the constituion) or their trustees (All hunters and members of the public, not just those that use bait or those that don't take CWD seriously). You and your daddy talk like the baiting community is the only one the GF is accountable too.

Who holds them accountable from moving away from testing in 3f2, the best in state study unit? (I know, less frequent but more extensive testing.. They can hardly get 5% of heads turned in).

Who holds them accountable when they turn a public meeting into a private, 1 way conversation where questions can't even been asked and concerns can't be voice in a group setting?

I've only heard rumors about this. But what I heard is that you guys were being complete assholes, hurling accusations at the game and fish and shouting at them. Perhaps I should call the Game and Fish folks and get their side of the story?

The governor has never held them accountable, or even held their feet to the fire for answers on those topics. Its always been sportsmen that are demanding answers.

Maybe the Governor is exercising common sense.

The state wildlife vet asked at the CWD specific meeting asked if a bait amount restriction would be a fair compromise because he thinks it would to which sportsmen and women (in the small groups we had to break down in to ask questions) agreed that would be fair, and then comes out in his testimony to the subcommittee and says that it's not a compromise they would be willing to make when he brought it up.

Dr. Bahnson refutes that claim.

I'm all for less governing and less rules.. But someone needs to be the checks and balances when the governor won't step in and do it, and this is the only way "we the people" have that ability currently, and we made sure of that through how the right to hunt amendment was put in our state constitution.

No you're not. You have admitted your disdain for the GF on this forum already. You simply think that you know better and the game and fish is wrong about everything. THat's it, just call a spade a spade.

The bill propoents arguments have been an amoeba of paradoxical bullshit.
1. CWD isn't real because were not seeing dead deer
2. CWD is not a threat because James Kroll said so
3. Humic acid is a cure
4. Genetics is the cure
5. Copper supplements is the cure
6. The GF is engaged in a conspiracy to kill all the deer.
7. The GF is allowing feeding but not hunting (which is a lie).
8. "There is no science"
9. "Your science is wrong"
10. Feeding in a 100 acre field is the same as a bait pile
11. The science is "junk" unless its been performed by a deer farmer or a privately funded by the deer farming industry
12. The science is "junk", but here's 10 scientific studies showing that *insert miracle cure here* can kill prions in a petri-dish. Even when the scientists who performed the study say it has no utility in live deer or on the landscape.
13. Using handicapped people, children, and the elderly as the excuse for grown ass men to get their way.
14. The deer will starve if we don't feed them.

That's a brief summary of all the arguments you folks have made, should I go on? CWD for you guys has been both not real and no threat to deer, and you've found not just 1, but multiple "cures" for a not real disease. The science is both wrong and doesn't exist, but also here's a cure based on a complete lack of understanding of "the science".

 

[GST]

Brock … if I might respond …. in a state where 91% of the land is private most being ag use lands … we the people play a pretty big role in the well being of the states wildlife … the NDG&F readily admits that

We the people have not relied on market hunting and it has been outlawed by legislatures since shortly after the time frame you reference

Many things have changed since the time frames you reference so lets focus on what is happening today and leave the blaming of past sins and reparations to the left wing folks on MSNBC

Quote”Controlling tag numbers, regulating methods of take, and season dates are just the first things that come to mind.”

If you wish to talk about how our states deer herd was mismanaged during the more current 2000-2010 time frame prior to CWD being found here in ND by NOT “controlling tag numbers” properly…. I can put some numbers together the G&F shared that show an apparent disregard for their own management plan for you and the folks here

 

[brocksw]

Brock … if I might respond …. in a state where 91% of the land is private most being ag use lands … we the people play a pretty big role in the well being of the states wildlife … the NDG&F readily admits that

We the people have not relied on market hunting and it has been outlawed by legislatures since shortly after the time frame you reference

Many things have changed since the time frames you reference so lets focus on what is happening today and leave the blaming of past sins and reparations to the left wing folks on MSNBC

If you wish to talk about how our states deer herd was mismanaged during the more current 2000-2010 time frame prior to CWD being found here in ND …. I can put some numbers together the G&F shared that show an apparent disregard for their own management plan for you and the folks here

Hey Gabe, welcome to HT. Have you stopped sending me FB messages yet? I quit checking.

To save us all the pain of watching you and Wyatt try and piece together excel sheets and pdfs. Here's the data. Point to where it hurt you.

 

[Schism]

The governor has never held them accountable, or even held their feet to the fire for answers on those topics. Its always been sportsmen that are demanding answers.

Perhaps if you had mounted a campaign against the governor with the same vigor you have mounted via the legislature, you would have had different results.

I'm all for less governing and less rules.. But someone needs to be the checks and balances when the governor won't step in and do it, and this is the only way "we the people" have that ability currently, and we made sure of that through how the right to hunt amendment was put in our state constitution.

You are all for governing with less rules until you don't like what is happening. Then you are more than happy to run to the legislature and have them pass some convoluted bill that contains dates, volumes, distances from property lines, etc to get what you want.

Again, I don't give two chits about your baiting deer. Having the legislature step in to write statute restricting the NDGF is not going to end well. With term limits for legislators recently put in place there is going to be a lot of turnover in the legislature in the next several decades. The demographics in the state are changing too. I'm not confident future legislatures won't bend to "we the people" that want to restrict trapping, predator hunting, hunting with hounds, etc. But at least you'll get to keep baiting deer big game.