Mule Deer four-point rule in Montana

[ida homer]

I've done quite a bit of research on point restrictions. From previous studies, they have not worked. It's such a fine line to be walked to have both tons of deer and tons of large deer. Everyone wants their cake and to eat it too.

I personally believe you have to choose between large populations or large horns. Some units are better than others but they are all relatively similar. I have read some studies that say forked horned bucks are the best animals to kill from a herd.

 

[MTODhunting]

I've done quite a bit of research on point restrictions. From previous studies, they have not worked. It's such a fine line to be walked to have both tons of deer and tons of large deer. Everyone wants their cake and to eat it too.

I personally believe you have to choose between large populations or large horns. Some units are better than others but they are all relatively similar. I have read some studies that say forked horned bucks are the best animals to kill from a herd.

I personally don't believe you have to choose between a healthy population or big antlers, I believe there has to be a middle ground somewhere. A point where all age classes are represented in a herd, including older mature bucks. But this is all in theory, in a perfect world of course, which the hunting world is not.

 

[Travis_Mt]

My opinion on this issue is that there is no single solution for this problem, whether it is severe winters, urban sprawl, the logging of winter grounds, predators, over hunting, habitat decline and migration corridor fragmentation, it all adds up to form the perfect storm. Colorado and Utah have spent millions of dollars over the last 5 plus years on habitat, research etc. They even lowered the number of tags given out and the mule deer are still declining. This is not a simple or quick fix but we need to all work together now so we will have these deer for the future. Here are some of my thoughts regarding the reasoning behind the mule deer decline and NO I do not have scientific data or anything else to back some of this up, just some food for thought.
1)Loss of Habitat. There are lots of factors included in this: urban sprawl, quick wild fire suppression, logging of the winter ranges, noxious weeds, and over grazing , to name a few
2)Predators…and no not WOLVES…I bet coyotes kill more deer than wolves and lions combined. You add in bobcats and bears and you have a lot of predators grazing on these declining herds. If you are NOT out hunting predators like you hunt other big game animals, then you have NO room to talk in any conversation regarding Wolves or any other predator.
3) Mismanaging of resources...We cannot continue to hunt mule deer the way we have for the last 50 plus years and expect them to last.
4) Too many doe tags…they say a mule deer lives ten years in the wild and during this time they will have about seven fawns that make it. For the last 20 years plus the doe limits have been way out numbering the deer. Do the math over the last 10 years and see where that gets you today. "The mule deer's reproductive rate of 94 fawns per 100 does is low compared to the whitetail's 140 fawns for every 100 does. Sexual maturity is slow in mule deer and only seven percent of the does breed when they are fawns and only 68 percent of yearling does become pregnant. About 65 percent of pregnant mule deer does carry twins compared to 82 percent of whitetail does having multiple births."

5) Stop hunting the deer in the rut (don’t get me wrong I LOVE this) but this in no way to manage a resource that has been declining for years…Everyone that is against this think what would happen if we were allowed to hunt elk starting Sept. 1st. Do you think there would be many elk left? Maybe do a special draw for the last three weeks or something like that. Hunting deer in the rut with a rifle makes it too easy for everyone. A lot of bucks that normally wouldn't be killed, get killed in these three weeks or so.
6) Stop shooting every antlered buck out there. I am not saying make all areas a trophy area but maybe to 4 point or better the final 3 weeks or all season. I know this is not a good way to manage trophy bucks, but before you can have trophy deer, you must first have a healthy and striving heard. And yes, I know that genetics and habitat are a major factor in this. To many hunters kill and not hunt, meaning they would rather show up at camp with a little buck, then not kill anything all year.
7) Raise the cost of deer tags in Montana by $5 and put that money towards deer habitat, studies etc Heck raise the cost of all tags for that matter. Montana has some of the lowest (resident) tags.
8) STOP being so GREEDY…we all need to come together and work on these issues and not worry about punching our tags every year. If we do not come together soon, there will not be many deer to hunt for the future. You cannot just change one thing and expect there to be more mule deer next year. This is not a quick fix or an easy fix. There are a lot of things that need to happen in order for us, to see mule deer numbers increasing. Punching your tag, just for the sake of punching a tag, will do nothing for this issue nor will doing nothing about this. Go to meetings, voice your opinion etc. if you sit back and don't expect anything to change...
9) Mule deer and Elk fight for the same habitat, ranges, and feed etc. Normally mule deer do not flourish, if their is a striving elk population. If you look at studies over the years, and you have a striving elk heard, mule deer herds are usually low.
10) Just like in humans and any other leaving creature. Genetics play a huge part in antler growth. If you have buck and doe with good genetics, you get a great buck and so on. The magical number for a mule deer to reach is 5-8 years for a mature buck. How many mule deer do you think reach this number, when they hang out in open areas, get hunted in the rut,have lots of predators, hunters shoot any size buck, they are mismanaged, their habitat is declining, winter ranges are getting built on or cut down and so on and so on. I am sure everyone can add to this list or pick it apart but, as you can see their are a lot of things that are coming together to cause a "perfect storm" so to speak.


“Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

 

[ida homer]

A healthy population doesn't have to mean a big population. A small population doesn't have to mean every buck in the unit will be 180+. I think it's just somewhat of a trade off. I think in heavily hunted OTC units like Idaho's unit 39, TONS of forkies get blasted all season long. That doesn't mean there are zero good bucks. I think there are less trophy bucks, but they are still there, and the ones that do make it to a good age tend to be bruisers. But to find them in the high drainages you have to be willing to not see a deer for a few days at a time. They are not in every draw.

Idaho's unit 24 is a thick wooded, mountainous unit with lots of predators. Any deer can be flat out hard to find there. The success rate of killing any buck in that unit is relatively low, but the majority of bucks that you actually do find, tend to be older class bucks, IMO. When I say older class, I don't mean 180+, I'm mainly referring to age not genetics.

 

[jryoung]

2)Predators…and no not WOLVES…I bet coyotes kill more deer than wolves and lions combined. You add in bobcats and bears and you have a lot of predators grazing on these declining herds. If you are NOT out hunting predators like you hunt other big game animals, then you have NO room to talk in any conversation regarding Wolves or any other predator.

How are predators sustaining high levels if they're main food source is declining?

 

[ida homer]

How are predators sustaining high levels if they're main food source is declining?

Because bears rarely eat meat. I'd guess coyotes, foxes and bears do more scavenging than anything. And no one is killing the predators, at least not compared to the rate that we like to kill ungulates.

 

[Bambistew]

I don't mind the MT system the way it is. Colorado needs fix'n though.

 

[Bulldog0156]

How are predators sustaining high levels if they're main food source is declining?

They feed off magic and fairies silly!

 

[shoots-straight]

8) STOP being so GREEDY…we all need to come together and work on these issues and not worry about punching our tags every year. If we do not come together soon, there will not be many deer to hunt for the future. You cannot just change one thing and expect there to be more mule deer next year. This is not a quick fix or an easy fix. There are a lot of things that need to happen in order for us, to see mule deer numbers increasing. Punching your tag, just for the sake of punching a tag, will do nothing for this issue nor will doing nothing about this. Go to meetings, voice your opinion etc. if you sit back and don't expect anything to change...

I haven't shot a mule deer sense 1993. Is that too greedy?

We went through the gambit here in the Bitterroot Valley trying to bring age diversity to the mule deer herds. The only sure way to do that with mule deer is limited entry.

 

[belly-deep]

It all comes down to opportunity vs. antler size.

MT recently did a survey on mule deer hunting and the hunters resoundingly chose opportunity.

Here's my take:

1) the record books show that MT will never, NEVER compete with states like Colorado for antler size. If you don't believe me, take a look back at record books from the early days. They provide a great comparison because the entire west pretty much had long seasons that lasted through the rut. MT was near the tail of the pack even back then.

2) Why do we need ALL the states to have the same seasons (limited opportunity)? As it stands, MT is the only state with a general season rut hunt. Why can't it stay that way? We are a generation of traveling hunters. We can research and apply for distant states like Colorado if we want to hunt big deer. We are no longer stuck in our own states due to limits on research and information.

3) Why try and turn a sow's ear into a silk purse? (see #1) In the process it will cut opportunity greatly. And contrary to popular belief, not all the hunters in states like Nevada and Utah are thrilled with their hunting.

4) Cutting seasons, unless you go to a strict draw with very low tag numbers, usually has the opposite effect of what was intended. Everyone still wants to fill their tag. And so instead of waiting a while to shoot an older age class buck, hunters get greedy and shoot the first buck they get their sights on. Look at how the majority of Utah hunters now have to hunt due to their regs.

Also, big bucks still live through rut seasons. Cutting out the rut or something else doesn't automatically make everyone easily kill big deer. You can look at Idaho if you want to see how this worked for them. They switched from longer seasons that included the rut to shorter October seasons. The number of big deer killed statewide every year didn't really increase. Maybe a few more deer die of old age now, but what good does that do anybody?

5) Go out and do some hard work. There are some big deer to be killed in MT. You might have to work harder than hunting the Breaks though.

 

[MTODhunting]

This is some great conversation! I love seeing all these view points! Realistically, will much change in Montana when it comes to mule deer hunting anytime soon, probably not. I was just looking to see what everyone's opinion on it was. I'm glad that most of us can come to the consensus that there is a problem with the current mule deer population trends, and that something should be done to maintain viable and huntable mule deer populations into the future. Will I still hunt for that big mossy buck on public land in Montana every year? yes. Will I ever shoot a buck remotely close to 28 or 30 inches on public land? Maybe. Hopefully. Will I fill my mule deer tag every year? No. But could I in Montana? yes. And finally, I'm coming to the conclusion, that I may have to travel to other states to find a trophy buck, and start putting in for states like Colorado and Arizona. This is a great conversation on conservation everyone.

P.S. I do not hunt the breaks, I was using the breaks as an example.

 

[Redwood]

Establish more limited draw areas that act as a safe haven. Age structure can improve and bucks will disperse from it. Look at area 270; huge bucks and the surrounding units get residual affects. Establish more of these units throughout the state and let the age class improve. Why do we get a buck/bull tag every year? Why not make it every other year, perhaps a draw system with high odds. Chances are you would get some antlered tag every year to get your fix. Why not a "earn a buck" program in some areas. A guy gets his meat, doe pop is getting put into check, and more bucks live to maturity since fewer hunters will go out after the freezer is already full. On a personal level, shooting a buck every year doesn't make you a great hunter, it makes you a greedy one. How many caped horns do you need hanging in the garage before you're considered a mans man. I'm not a huge fan of pt rest. as it can promote inferior genetics. I will not bombard references like oak, but there are plenty of studies that support this system. Why, age structure. A buck doesn't hit his prime until 5,6,7 depending on variables yet most bucks get wacked at 2 and 3. Either way you slice it, something needs to be done. Lack of quality on public land is a key issue as to why nr tags don't sell. I've had countless conversations with res/nr alike that feel even with time in the field the opportunities are few and far between. As a guy that hunts hard and long, I would agree.

 

[Nameless Range]

I think Travis_Mt had a good list. I especially agree that hunting deer in the rut hurts, and also have concern with how many bucks are killed pre-rut. I think placing the emphasis on the maturity of the animal, and not the inches, though the two are correlated, is important. I LOVE that I can at least try for giant muleys every year in Montana. That crap in Colorado and Utah where hunters wait years between tags is, in my opinion, bad for hunting and the way hunters are perceived. We needn't go to the extremes they have, and can shift district management gradually and specifically. Generally though, I think MT FWP does a great job.

Lastly, Belly-Deep was right on when he said that going out and doing some hard work can increase your chances of killing a big deer. They are out there.

 

[----]

Look at area 270; huge bucks and the surrounding units get residual affects.

I would love to hear more about this. In my observation 261 is the only unit bordering 270 that is doing well at all, and it's been managed almost exactly the same as 270. The general units around 270 are in pretty sad shape.

 

[MTODhunting]

Establish more limited draw areas that act as a safe haven. Age structure can improve and bucks will disperse from it. Look at area 270; huge bucks and the surrounding units get residual affects. Establish more of these units throughout the state and let the age class improve. Why do we get a buck/bull tag every year? Why not make it every other year, perhaps a draw system with high odds. Chances are you would get some antlered tag every year to get your fix. Why not a "earn a buck" program in some areas. A guy gets his meat, doe pop is getting put into check, and more bucks live to maturity since fewer hunters will go out after the freezer is already full. On a personal level, shooting a buck every year doesn't make you a great hunter, it makes you a greedy one. How many caped horns do you need hanging in the garage before you're considered a mans man. I'm not a huge fan of pt rest. as it can promote inferior genetics. I will not bombard references like oak, but there are plenty of studies that support this system. Why, age structure. A buck doesn't hit his prime until 5,6,7 depending on variables yet most bucks get wacked at 2 and 3. Either way you slice it, something needs to be done. Lack of quality on public land is a key issue as to why nr tags don't sell. I've had countless conversations with res/nr alike that feel even with time in the field the opportunities are few and far between. As a guy that hunts hard and long, I would agree.

I completely agree, something does need to be done, especially to help restore a better age structure. I also agree that the public land opportunities are getting fewer and further between year after year, don't get me wrong, we still have it good with public land here in Montana, but things are definitely on the decline.

 

[shoots-straight]

Establish more limited draw areas that act as a safe haven. Age structure can improve and bucks will disperse from it. Look at area 270; huge bucks and the surrounding units get residual affects

There are some residual effected areas around those limited entry districts. BUT, most of the good deer that are supposedly taken in adjoining HD's are poached from the limited entry area.

Also, the native brothers from up north have decided that selling big bucks makes sense. They shoot a number of these big deer every year, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Opportunity was lost at a large cost. It is now a monster.

 

[mtmuley]

Managing an area as a trophy unit has no effect on what deer in an adjoining area will do unless said unit is managed the same way. You don't magically get great deer hunting just because the unit next door has it. mtmuley

 

[belly-deep]

Anyone care to guess at how much pressure in other areas has been caused by all the draw units in region 2? Displaced hunters have to go somewhere and if you get too many draw units the remaining general units go to crap. Meanwhile the draw odds climb and everyone is left waiting for a "lifetime" tag that really isn't worth a hoot. Its a vicious cycle.

 

[mtlion]

I'm coming to the conclusion, that I may have to travel to other states to find a trophy buck, and start putting in for states like Colorado and Arizona.

Sounds like a great idea. Better get on that.

 

[----]

Anyone care to guess at how much pressure in other areas has been caused by all the draw units in region 2? Displaced hunters have to go somewhere and if you get too many draw units the remaining general units go to crap. Meanwhile the draw odds climb and everyone is left waiting for a "lifetime" tag that really isn't worth a hoot. Its a vicious cycle.

I think this is very real. I know as many people that drive eight hours to go fill their tags in breaks and eastern Montana as I do that fill them around here. I can't imagine how many 4/13 plates there are over there around Thanksgiving.