MT Mule Deer Symposium

[belly-deep]

cowboy, do you know why the other states have gone to "choose your weapon/season"....they have to many hunters...Montana will be there, eventually....we are close right now...wildlife and the places they inhabit are finite...the resource can not handle infinite pressure....hence permits in many other states, restrictive season, ect.....My fear is that if we do not begin to look at doing something, split seasons may stem off the permits for years...or not...pick your season/weapon may stave off the permits...eventually it will be permits, unless humans start succombing to EHD like the whitetail on the Milk did....

Or because they allow motorized access into every corner of the map.

We don't need to start chopping at our seasons or tags; we just need limited access.

Of course outfitters on private land would never consider walking everywhere because their client want them to cart their fat asses around everywhere.

 

[Fair Chase Hunter]

Mule Deer Symposium

I wish some hunters from Idaho would speak up on this issue.

Idaho used to have a system similar to that in MT. Most units were general tags and the seasons ran through the rut."

I have hunted Idaho every year since 1970 when Idaho had general tags and a two buck limit in the Snake River Units....especially Unit 13....in those days you could shoot mature bucks every year, with a little bit of effort. But, all of that has changed now.

I used to hunt the Snake River units, 11, 13 and 18. I carefully tracked the population data kept by Idaho Fish and Game and it was interesting that all three of these units had almost the same post season buck/doe rations as well as fawn counts. However, each of these units was different in its own way. Unit 11 had a lot of private land and was easy to access, but was a limited entry unit. Unit 13 was nearly all private land which limited access. Unit 18 was mostly wilderness and Hell's Canyon NRA where the rugged, remote country limited access. Big, mature bucks could be found in all three of these units in similar numbers annually.

As hunter access and proficiency (more long-range rifles, backpack hunters, jet boat access, etc) changed and the mule deer decline began for all kinds of reasons, Unit 18 went to LE and finally Unit 13 went to a 100% drawing and finally to LE. Today, all three of these units have similar population dynamics and hold a few mature bucks, but all three have significantly less mule deer now than they did 30 years ago for all of the reasons cited today related to the overall mule deer decline.

In my view, Idaho has done a good job of providing balance in their management efforts. It's LE system has been beneficial the mule deer populations in selected areas of the state and provides mature bucks for those who participate in the annual drawings. On the other hand, Idaho has a good number of units with general seasons which also hold good number so mature bucks. It has other areas where hunters who want more opportuntiy can find "any buck" with a little effort.

Idaho is one state Montana can look to for examples of what might work here. In the end, whatever we implement in Montana must work for Montana's various user groups and most of all the mule deer.

 

[Big Shooter]

Belly-deep;

Where in the F¥£€ did you gather that idea out of the last post about carting fat asses around wherever? I am pretty sure that no outfitter on here is asking for any special favors....but, instead trying to find a solution that would be doable for the DIY person, the outfitter and the run of the mill meat hunter. So......open your mind and start thinking outside the box.

 

[Straight Arrow]

other states have gone to "choose your weapon/season"....they have to many hunters...Montana will be there, eventually....we are close right now...

Did I not read that the number of hunters in Montana has decreased the past few years?

If limitations and permits are a viable solution, then why are outfitters wanting unlimited permits in the Breaks?

 

[belly-deep]

I am pretty sure that no outfitter on here is asking for any special favors....

That's funny because what I'm hearing from you and Eric is that you want bigger deer for your clients so you can charge bigger $$$, despite the fact that the MT public has strongly stated it does not want to take an axe to the rut season. Am I wrong?

 

[belly-deep]

If limitations and permits are a viable solution, then why are outfitters wanting unlimited permits in the Breaks?

Oooo....burn....

Cause its all about the $$$...

Remember how a bunch of the speakers at the Mule Deer meeting were explaining how to "maximize profits" of our game.

 

[Big Shooter]

Straight Arrow....last I checked.....mule deer tags were unlimited in the breaks. 652 is limited.......but unless I am mistaken......the rest are unlimited areas. You may be thinking about elk.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Right, Big Shooter ... so if elk archery (and perhaps rifle) tags were unlimited or greatly increased, doesn't it follow that there would be an increase in hunters who will also take a mule deer, especially if the elk hunting is more difficult.

 

[Fair Chase Hunter]

The FWP foundation member discussed how his home state of Washington has gone to more limited entry type hunts and bragged about the size of the bull elk killed on his family’s ranch now even though his name may never be drawn. His message was the need to “balance opportunity” among landowners and outfitters. He seemed to catch himself and added public hunters. It may not have been intentional but it was certainly obvious.

Ingomar: Instead of bragging about the size of elk, the point was that now these mature bulls are prevalent because of what a group of hunters did 20 years ago. There was a lot of angst among the various user groups on one hand, and the elk populations were declining when a task group of rifle, muzzleloader and bow hunters were charged by the Department of Fish and Widlife with the task of developing a system for improving the deer and elk herds while addressing the access/opportunity issue.

Washington hunters were harvesting more than 99% of the bull elk in Eastern Washington annually. As a result, yearling bulls (spikes) were breeding the cows....and bred later than mature bulls normally do, calves were born later, went into the winter with less weight and survived at a lesser rater than calves born earlier. The question was how to get more mature bulls into the herds without destroying hunting opportunity.

As a result of these individuals working over a three-year period they collaboratively developed a system of allocating hunting opportunity among the user groups so each got a "fair" amount of time afield. In addition, they recommended a general "spike only" bull season as well as the traditional antlerless seasons. The spike only season allowed anyone who wanted to hunt elk the opportunity to hunt elk and allowed a few yearling bulls to escape annually. Over time the numbers of mature bulls grew to the point where they were of sufficient numbers to allow for limited entry hunts in all EW units. In addition, this task group recommended a "choose your weapon" protocol which further limited opportunity, but provided choices for hunters.

The result is that today, we have the "trophy" bulls on our family farm in the Teanaway area that I mentioned and we allow hunters who draw permits to hunt these bulls annually, just for asking to hunt. The bulls I mentioned just happened to go past the 400 B&C threshold....one was killed by a vehicle on the highway and one was killed by a local hunter. The chances for me to draw one of these tags is very limited, but it pleases me as a hunter and landowner to see these bulls and the smiles on the faces of the hunters who get the chance to harvest them even though I will likely never get to hunt one of them.

As hunters, we all appreciate much more about our wildlife than a "dead head" on a wall or a "trophy photo" in somebody's album. I am pleased that we have great elk herds in Washington even if we have had to resort to what most Montanan's would view as extremely restrictive hunting protocols. So, if you thought I was bragging, you need to know that was not my intent.

What works in Washington or other states may not be what Montana ends up with...but based upon what I have observed, Montana is on the "cusp of change." Somewhere in the near future we must find the courage and resolve to get the various user groups together and figure out what works for all of us. The alternative is for each of us to harden our respective positions and "stay on the fight" and let the legislature and the courts decide our future and the future or our great wildlife resources for us.

 

[Big Shooter]

Belly-deep....................yep........you are wrong actually. Show me one time where Eric or myself stated that we would like bigger deer for our clients so we could charge more money even though the public wants to keep the season the way it is??? Actually.......if you were to read a little closer.....we were both wanting to make it better for the DIY person and....and the outfitting industry. If the DIY guy was killing better deer, we would be killing better deer and if the deer on private had an extra year or two to mature they to would be that much older when they spilled over on to public. Surprisingly enough.....we are all in this together and.......like Eric stated.....we need to come up with some common ground of some kind.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Surprisingly enough.....we are all in this together and.......like Eric stated.....we need to come up with some common ground of some kind.

Although therein lies the problem, I agree and I think many others agree on that.

One consideration worth analyzing is the difference in numbers of hunters and available gross hunting ground in Montana versus Washington ... before we jump on the Washington band wagon of limiting hunting opportunity and doling out that opportunity.

 

[Big Shooter]

Straight Arrow.....I don't think that unlimited rifle permits in the Breaks was ever an issue.......nor should it be, and you are right, that would cause problems for the deer. It actually did when they increased the rifle tags for elk on the south side and those hunters just could not handle going home empty handed so they blew over a young mule deer buck. I am glad that you brought that up because it is a great example of what happens when the deer season goes that late and people are out amongst the game looking for an elk.

 

[belly-deep]

Belly-deep....................yep........you are wrong actually. Show me one time where Eric or myself stated that we would like bigger deer for our clients so we could charge more money even though the public wants to keep the season the way it is??? Actually.......if you were to read a little closer.....we were both wanting to make it better for the DIY person and....and the outfitting industry. If the DIY guy was killing better deer, we would be killing better deer and if the deer on private had an extra year or two to mature they to would be that much older when they spilled over on to public. Surprisingly enough.....we are all in this together and.......like Eric stated.....we need to come up with some common ground of some kind.

I can't show you cuz I'm readin' between the lines...

Also, I don't buy your "spill over" theory. You guys seem to think you're the holy gods of mule deer managment and that we lowley peons deserve the few scraps left over from your adventures. Nothing is going to be "spilling" anywhere until the rut comes along, and if there is no rut season...then what?

 

[belly-deep]

How many acres do you operate on anyway?

 

[Big Shooter]

Can't show me cause you are reading between the lines....? I respect an honest man

I am pretty sure that we don't think that we are the "holy gods" of mule deer management and that we think of DIY hunters as peons and that you should have "scraps". I don't think that either of us are implying that at all. And....if there is no rut season......and no "spilling over"......then those bucks make it through the season, only to be bigger the next season and to pass those genes on to the next generation....and the cycle continues. No "spillage" either way, to public or to private.

How many acres? Could always use more. Why? Do you have a lead on some? If you do, shoot me a pm and let me know the details please Just kidding!

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ben, I can concur on some of your points...but will not concede what I know as fact. Coyotes are hammering the fawn/yearling segement of the mule deer population. Yes, there are certainly other factors....but in Reg. 7 the only place that you find a doe w/ twins is in my ranchers backyard...in the hills away from people there are about 2.5-3 fawns per 10 does....and coyotes are out of hand. I am looking at the whole picture, habitiat where I guide in Reg. 7 is outstanding....nothing has changed in the last 10 years...except the coyote population is about 10x's higher.....drought, last year was the first dry year in the last 10 where I hunt in SE MT....winter has been a non-factor there as well... there are good antelope populations on the ranches as well....but low fawn numbers there as well...not as bad as the mule deer doe:fawn ratio though....why is that? well, the goats migrate, and where they are in the spring appartently the coyotes are not as thick....along w/ other unknow variables I will assume...so, a declining doe:fawn ratio, and I am seeing more coyotes than ever(shot 18 from my pickup during season), most I saw in a day was 14(more yotes than fawns that day).

How to get quantity and quality....not easy, but doable. Bow season Sept. 1-29, muzzleloader(no in-lines no scopes) season Oct. 1-10, Rifle season 11-Nov. 4 , Bow season again Nov. 5-30, more tags for FWP to sell(hence more $$) more opportunity for the resident hunter...less impact on the resource (win-win-win). I am not set in stone on this kind of structure, but something along these lines is certainly workable...and maybe it would not work forever, but is worth looking into....eventually we will have to many people and to finite a resource...then it will be pick your season/weapon, and eventually we will be at permits for rifle hunting....the great thing about attempting to be pro-active is that we get to permits a lot further down the road than if we just sit on our thumbs and do nothing(like is going on now).


Now onto the season settings....

Eric,
Show me the water that was put on the ground to make green grass versus the dried out stuff that has no nutritional content outside of irrigated fields and homes.

Coyotes might very well be at high numbers and prey species might well be at low numbers, but that also is indicative of forage conditions for rabbits etc. prey species populationnumbers numbers swing. Predator numbers swing behind that. You do not manage populations on short term cycles. That's how you get the Utah model which is heavy on reducing hunter numbers instead of increasing populations.

The drought numbers you quote are suspect according to NOAA and other agencies that measure precipitation. What passes for wet nowadays is not what we grew up with. We both know that.

If the goal is to increase quality of deer, messing with season structure beyond some minor tinkering will not have the impact we're looking for. Focusing on even distribution of wildlife will help hunters harvest more deer with bigger racks, but again, the majority of sportsmen in MT do not put rack size first. They put quality of hunt first.according to the One Monana survey.

 

[BuzzH]

Why must we find common "ground" with outfitters?

We're excluded from the common "ground" they hunt...and they are free to practice whatever management style they want for the mule deer that inhabit their leases/private lands.

I'm not asking for access to their leases and fully encourage them to choose to hunt deer on their leases during the rut, or to choose not to. If they want to increase the B&C potential...knock yourselves out. Manage your leases as you see fit, I wont complain about your decisions, wont even question them.

I'd also appreciate you not telling the rest of the hunting world they need to find common ground with the outfitting industry in regard to deer management.

Oh, and bigshooter...this has to be the biggest lie I've ever read on this board: we were both wanting to make it better for the DIY person and....and the outfitting industry.

Wow...thats something.

 

[Big Shooter]

Buzzy....I am pretty sure that when Eric made the comment about "finding common ground" he meant between the outfitting industry and the DIY guy as we both have different ideas as well as different goals. Nothing personal I'm sure.

Oh....and Buzz.....you can take your "liar" accusation and shove it up your "arrogant" bung hole!

 

[belly-deep]

How many acres? Could always use more. Why? Do you have a lead on some? If you do, shoot me a pm and let me know the details please Just kidding!

This is why I was asking:

If they want to increase the B&C potential...knock yourselves out. Manage your leases as you see fit, I wont complain about your decisions, wont even question them.

No one is stopping you from leasing out 50K+ acres, hunting it walk in only, not shooting deer less than 190", and refraining from guiding hunters after Oct. 31.

It seems to me with a 50K acre ranch, you could create your own quasi-LE Utah/Wyoming/Colorado style world with October seasons.

And from what I've heard, 50K is not an unusual ranch size to lease down in your country, and so that is why I asked. I'm assuming you have enough acres to do something like that, but don't. And I assume you don't because your clients like to drill rutting bucks in the middle of November and you like making money off of them.

 

[BuzzH]

Big Shooter,

Name one thing that outfitters have done to find "common ground" with DIY resident and non-resident hunters in Montana the last 50 years.

Name one thing that outfitters have done that have favored DIY hunting opportunities over that of their clients.

Name one management practice that the outfitting industry has passed that benefits opportunity for DIY hunters over their clients.

Can hardly wait for your next installment of the "Outfitters looking out for the DIY hunters"...

You're just damned lucky the Residents Hunters of Montana have been gracious enough to share their wildlife resources with those that profit from same.

You act and talk as if you're now doing us average DIY R and NR hunters a favor by finding "common ground" by severely limiting opportunity. Seems to me that the outfitting industry has largely went along for the 5-week rifle season ride...

Thank you for all your "support"...it means a lot.

What a fuggin' joke.