MT - Changes in Hunting Regs/Units/Seasons coming this month

[brocksw]

Yeah, its all about just not being blamed for things...not about asking relevant questions before you push an agenda. Or heaven forbid, actually working for wildlife and management.

One would like to think, a person charged with running a State, and another charged with management of wildlife...would ask his own department for some information on whether or not shoulder seasons are accomplishing goals before recommending more. In particular when they want to expand them to public land. But, what do I know?

Plus, if they had data that supported or showed that the shoulder seasons were working, they'd be shoving that in everyone's face.

They aren't doing that, so....let me go out on the ragged, hairy edge and say that either the data doesn't exist (most likely), or it isn't painting the picture they want.

Is this something that can be litigated?

 

[BuzzH]

Then how do you know this?

If they were working, the landowners wouldn't still be complaining about elk.

Intuitively obvious, even to the most casual observer.

 

[BuzzH]

Is this something that can be litigated?

Doubtful, the FWP makes all kinds of promises they never keep.

If it's not in writing, it never happened.

 

[brocksw]

If they were working, the landowners wouldn't still be complaining about elk.

Intuitively obvious, even to the most casual observer.

But playing devils advocate here, they can just counter and say it's not aggressive enough. There isn't just the one logical conclusion.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

My cynical side tells me this isn’t about managing elk. At all. It’s about providing the season flexibility for landowners to do pretty much what they want, when they want.

If it was about actually managing elk, there WOULD be quantifiable data on population distribution, movement, etc. Seasons would actually be structured AROUND this data to address the identified issues.

To reiterate Ben Lamb’s point, I’m not advocating you take this in the ass lying down. Fight it for all you’re worth. But, don’t be so naive as to think there is likely a good outcome in this for Public Land Joe.

 

[BuzzH]

But playing devils advocate here, they can just counter and say it's not aggressive enough. There isn't just the one logical conclusion.

You have an answer for everything. Yeah, unlimited tags, 6 month seasons just isn't aggressive enough. We need to bust out the elk poison, elk snares, and aerial gunning.

Have a good one!

 

[rogerthat]

I will say it again, the best luck our group ever had getting through proposals that made sense to hunters was to work with the bio BEFORE the proposals were due. This worked on HD270, HD261 and HD262 mule deer and a lot of other tentatives that became seasons.

Lots of years ago we sat back and waited to see what FWP proposed and then reacted in a host of ways. Mostly we got the "Thanks for your comments" and that was the end.

Hank took the option for preliminary working with bios way. We are going to get what ever they serve up. Just like shoulder seasons. Some of the proposals might make some sense. Many won't.

This time won't be any different. We have no choice but to see what they come up with and mostly that will become the new Montana. Waiting to see the proposals was never a good idea and it isn't now. Difference is now we have no choice. These proposals will have a ton of FWP work into them by the time the public sees them. That is the very reason changing them will be difficult.

Hank's coming and hell is coming with him.

So if I walk into the region headquarters and request to speak to the biologist in my region because I have concerns with what I am hearing is coming down the pike would I get anywhere? Sorry if I am skeptical but I have been literally laughed at by fwp bio’s when I pushed back on their statement that 100% of the mule deer does were bred each year. I may just walk over and see for fun….any bets? I bet i don’t get much. I think this effort would need to be organized similar to how you guys pulled it off in the root.

 

[brocksw]

You have an answer for everything. Yeah, unlimited tags, 6 month seasons just isn't aggressive enough. We need to bust out the elk poison, elk snares, and aerial gunning.

Have a good one!

Well Buzz, thats essentially what the "otherside" is saying from what I can tell. Again, I'm not saying I disagree with your take or perspective. But some effort needs to be taken to understand the other perspectives from the other stakeholders.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

But playing devils advocate here, they can just counter and say it's not aggressive enough. There isn't just the one logical conclusion.

The only thing more aggressive would be helicopters and shooting them off haystack, one of which has been done.

It doesn’t matter how aggressive you are if there isn’t timely access to the elk. Under likely to be abandoned elk management plan, there were preferred alternatives for situations like this. It was either don’t count the elk, or go to cow only seasons

 

[brocksw]

The only thing more aggressive would be helicopters and shooting them off haystack, one of which has been done.

It doesn’t matter how aggressive you are if there isn’t timely access to the elk. Under likely to be abandoned elk management plan, there were preferred alternatives for situations like this. It was either don’t count the elk, or go to cow only seasons

I agree. But there has to be a disconnect. In one thread we discuss how some ranchers and landowners / outfitters want to exploit wildlife and put them up for sale and then in another we discuss how that same group want to eliminate that same source of revenue. They can't all be that stupid. Cattle ranchers are business men.

 

[tjones]

So if I walk into the region headquarters and request to speak to the biologist in my region because I have concerns with what I am hearing is coming down the pike would I get anywhere? Sorry if I am skeptical but I have been literally laughed at by fwp bio’s when I pushed back on their statement that 100% of the mule deer does were bred each year. I may just walk over and see for fun….any bets? I bet i don’t get much. I think this effort would need to be organized similar to how you guys pulled it off in the root.

Probably not going to get you anywhere. It takes years and years and you have to establish a working relationship with the bio. In the Root over the last 30 years we have had good bios, ones we can work with. Except one.

We have had some success and a whole lot of failures. Sticking with it for some good outcome is tough. Guys get tired of hearing NO.

I have been to regional meetings were guys roll in, have never been to a meeting or before that night even knew who their bios was and start pounding the table with their fists demanding their ideas become seasons. It never works. Not saying this you just saying that's what I have seen.

 

[rogerthat]

Probably not going to get you anywhere. It takes years and years and you have to establish a working relationship with the bio. In the Root over the last 30 years we have had good bios, ones we can work with. Except one.

We have had some success and a whole lot of failures. Sticking with it for some good outcome is tough. Guys get tired of hearing NO.

I have been to regional meetings were guys roll in, have never been to a meeting or before that night even knew who their bios was and start pounding the table with their fists demanding their ideas become seasons. It never works. Not saying this you just saying that's what I have seen.

Ok. Thanks. Kind of what I figured but I still might walk over there and see if I even get to talk to a bio

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I agree. But there has to be a disconnect. In one thread we discuss how some ranchers and landowners / outfitters want to exploit wildlife and put them up for sale and then in another we discuss how that same group want to eliminate that same source of revenue. They can't all be that stupid. Cattle ranchers are business men.

You’re trying to lump them all together. It doesn’t work, and that’s why issues have never been resolved.

Some ranchers truly don’t want a single elk on their place. At all. Others want more so they can sell more hunts. Others don’t care how many ek are on their place, no one is shooting them.

Add all of this together and you get a shit sandwich. Many districts simply don’t have the access to achieve the goals of eliminating the conflict elk pose with the guy who doesn’t want any, because they spend the majority of their time on the other places.

It’s a sociological issue as much as a biological one. It’s not getting solved by making huge districts with 6 month seasons. The public land elk get shot to shit and the inaccessible elk remain, inaccessible.

 

[BuzzH]

Ok. Thanks. Kind of what I figured but I still might walk over there and see if I even get to talk to a bio

rogerthat,

Just so you know as well, the changes that tjones, shoots-straights, and others wanted were EASY in comparison to what you would be asking the entrenched FWP to change with their current ideas. Its not going to be easy to get them to even make slight adjustments, let alone totally abandon their ideas.

Its ridiculous how hard those guys in the Bitterroot had to fight for some very basic and good management changes...absolutely absurd. But, I would argue it was well worth it. However, we're in a much different environment with things today. I honestly don't think those guys in the 'Root would be able to do what they did then, now.

Still have to try, good luck!

 

[Schaaf]

My cynical side tells me this isn’t about managing elk. At all. It’s about providing the season flexibility for landowners to do pretty much what they want, when they want.

Yes. It’s about control of the resource.

I can’t imagine the Galt’s and Wilks of this state are overly thrilled with the fact that a 28 year old po-dunk bio gets to tell them what they can and can’t do on their property.

 

[Irrelevant]

I can't remember who said it, but to paraphrase, MT doesn't have an elk problem it has a neighbor problem. As @JLS pointed out, some neighbors preferred management doesn't jive with the neighbors preference.

 

[TheTone]

Yes. It’s about control of the resource.

I can’t imagine the Galt’s and Wilks of this state are overly thrilled with the fact that a 28 year old po-dunk bio gets to tell them what they can and can’t do on their property.

That’s why they get taught as a bio that those large landowners are the salt of the earth and part of what makes Montana so great. I’m amazed at some of the comments one of the bios I know makes with regards to such topics as times, definitely a different mindset from when I first met them

 

[brocksw]

View attachment 191095
Buy a copy for an FWP Employee.

I'd be willing to throw in some cash to order order a whole bunch of them for fwp staff.

 

[HSi-ESi]

Thanks for the great info @Ben Lamb and @Randy11 - I've read through them quickly and will print them out to take with me to the Missoula meeting on the 23rd.

First pass impression - I can't believe that they think the regulations are that difficult to interpret. 40,000 calls related to hard to read regulations??? I can see the call load increasing as our applicant numbers are higher - but it seems like they are looking for reasons to make wholesale changes.

 

[rogerthat]

Thanks for the great info @Ben Lamb and @Randy11 - I've read through them quickly and will print them out to take with me to the Missoula meeting on the 23rd.

First pass impression - I can't believe that they think the regulations are that difficult to interpret. 40,000 calls related to hard to read regulations??? I can see the call load increasing as our applicant numbers are higher - but it seems like they are looking for reasons to make wholesale changes.

They are. They are packaging it as simplification of the regulations. But that’s not what it is. Today’s society wants simple quick solutions so a bunch of MT sportsman aren’t going to know what hit them until it’s too late. Not every proposal is going to be bad per the unit specifics but taken in it’s entirety it is a significant escalation of the “let the administrator” of the land manage the game. That’s not what the vast majority of MT sportsman want even if they are too dumb to recognize why things are sinking further and further down the toilet bowl