More deer killed by wolves than hunters in some Wisconsin counties

[NoWiser]

Wolves have been forever, but the numbers of hunters haven't. So what do you enjoy more, wolves or hunting? The argument of wolf advocates saying they've always been here is a pointless argument since humans haven't always been here. Things change, everyone knows that.

For someone who wants wolves, you ought to never complain about animal numbers and not being able to pull a tag. Wolves are eating tags you could've drawn.

I’ve never not drawn a tag because of wolves and don’t ever expect that they’ll prevent me from drawing one. But if having wolves on the landscape does mean a few less tags in my life, I’m 100% ok with that.

On the other hand, I’ve drawn tags I would not have, if wolves were not here in healthy numbers.

 

[BuzzH]

Wolves have been forever, but the numbers of hunters haven't. So what do you enjoy more, wolves or hunting? The argument of wolf advocates saying they've always been here is a pointless argument since humans haven't always been here. Things change, everyone knows that.

For someone who wants wolves, you ought to never complain about animal numbers and not being able to pull a tag. Wolves are eating tags you could've drawn.

Hunter numbers are declining nation wide...those pesky facts again.

 

[jryoung]

For someone who wants wolves, you ought to never complain about animal numbers and not being able to pull a tag. Wolves are eating tags you could've drawn.

I'd much rather give a "tag" to a wolf, than to any number of anthropogenic causes for shitty habitat that could have been prevented but were largely ignored by the hunting community.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Me checking this thing out this morning

 

[Ben Lamb]

when the population is out of control it's not selfish

This is a human construct, not a biological one. Balance happens in nature, man expects a level plane of existence for his own, selfish reasons.

Are wolves above delisting criteria? Yes. Should they be delisted in the Great Lakes, absolutely. Can WI, MN & MI manage them successfully with hunting & landowner programs - damn straight. Is congressional delisting worth it for the GL wolves - it's the only way to get management to the states who have abley shown they can manage them in light of the inability of congress to come to terms with meaningful reforms to the ESA that deal with delisting rules within the DPS rather than nation-wide.

Assuming that wolves are "out of control" doesn't bear out when you look at the data. Are they above the minimum number for delisting, yes. Name one other critter we manage for the basement on.

 

[Ben Lamb]

What's wrong with keeping wolves at lower levels so as to provide for more opportunities for hunters?

It provides a false sense of entitlement & disregards biological carrying capacity of the habitat for ungulates, leading people to think you can kill your way to higher deer & elk numbers, rather than focus on habitat conservation.

And it's ethically dubious & anthropologically selfish to kill off one native species for the short term increase of another species.

 

[Tradewind]

It provides a false sense of entitlement & disregards biological carrying capacity of the habitat for ungulates, leading people to think you can kill your way to higher deer & elk numbers, rather than focus on habitat conservation.

And it's ethically dubious & anthropologically selfish to kill off one native species for the short term increase of another species.

Well, geeeee. Our conscious has spoken

 

[Ben Lamb]

Well, geeeee. Our conscious has spoken

It's probably good that a morally suspect individual such as yerself lets me be your Jimminy Cricket.

 

[Ben Lamb]

"Name one other critter we manage for the basement on."

Mule deer in western Montana

Touche.

But we still don't manage mule deer to such a level that we're simply keeping them off of the endangered species lists.

 

[SAJ-99]

If WI didn't;t have so many deer it wouldn't;

Hunter numbers are declining nation wide...those pesky facts again.

Just curious on the source. My search showed a pretty steady number. In 2019 15.5m licenses sold collecting $896.5m. In 2007 (sort of randomly selected to account for general economic strength) 14.6m licenses sold collecting $723.7m. I have always questioned this narrative because a lot of sources substitutes the % of the population that hunts (dropping), with the number of hunters (rising).
Sensational journalism leads me back to wolves, the headline is not exactly a fair comparison. Wolves eat year round, while hunters take game for a few months each year. And Wisconsin sold almost 700k hunting license last year. In the end, wolves only kill prey that exists and the biggest manager of wolf population are the wolves themselves. I absolutely think the states should be allowed to "manage", within bounds of fair chase and population limits. I put manage in quotes because we "manage" coyotes and it doesn't do much good on the population. I think hunters can coexist with wolves just fine, but they have to start by stop blaming wolves for everything and accept their presence on the landscape. Just my $0.02.

 

[Tradewind]

Like it or not, Lamb...and I know you don't, but being in the middle of the of the political wrangling you should know better than anyone tht money dictates where this will head.

 

[Zach]

Reading through this since my last time in had me thinking of a Top Gun quote "Maverick, it's not your flying(hunting), it's your attitude. The enemy's dangerous, but right now you're worse. Dangerous and foolish. You may not like who's flying(hunting) with you, but whose side are you on?"

Apply to whom you see fit.

 

[88man]

Thank god we live in a country so great we can have friendly banter on these issues. I am thankful that we have wolves! I am frustrated that we can't manage them better or that I just don't like the current management. Now you guys stuffing that pipe and working on that magical utopia your just playing with match box cars and army men, come on the natural world we are in with all those cattle and sheep feral horses and people and more people are they on the floor with those match box cars and army men too? We have a right to have a little hate towards the big bad wolf. I cringe when I hear " THATS WHY ANTI HUNTERS DONT LIKE US" they don't like hunting period. So what! But again thank god we have wolves and all creatures.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

It isn’t relevant to why anti hunters don’t like us, but it certainly is relevant to pragmatic non hunters and how they view us.

Carry on.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Thank god we live in a country so great we can have friendly banter on these issues. I am thankful that we have wolves! I am frustrated that we can't manage them better or that I just don't like the current management. Now you guys stuffing that pipe and working on that magical utopia your just playing with match box cars and army men, come on the natural world we are in with all those cattle and sheep feral horses and people and more people are they on the floor with those match box cars and army men too? We have a right to have a little hate towards the big bad wolf. I cringe when I hear " THATS WHY ANTI HUNTERS DONT LIKE US" they don't like hunting period. So what! But again thank god we have wolves and all creatures.

Just to be clear, I've worked with landowners, public land grazers, sheep men, cattlemen, people who live in the middle of packs of wolves and those who live in cities for the last 18 years on this issue. I've helped write hunting law around wolves in MT since 2009, increased funding for landowner programs in WY, MT and nationally, was heavily involved in the delisting effort under Simpson Tester (As were a great number of people on this board) and I got license #43 for the first year of wolf hunting in Montana.

But yeah, those of us who've been in these trenches for the last 20 years or more don't know what we're talking about.

I don't begrudge anyone dealing with the impact to their livelihood a distaste for wolves or the right to put a 55 grain pill between the eyes of as many as they can. I dislike hunters thinking that conservation is about them, and not wildlife.

 

[88man]

Just to be clear, I've worked with landowners, public land grazers, sheep men, cattlemen, people who live in the middle of packs of wolves and those who live in cities for the last 18 years on this issue. I've helped write hunting law around wolves in MT since 2009, increased funding for landowner programs in WY, MT and nationally, was heavily involved in the delisting effort under Simpson Tester (As were a great number of people on this board) and I got license #43 for the first year of wolf hunting in Montana.

But yeah, those of us who've been in these trenches for the last 20 years or more don't know what we're talking about.

I don't begrudge anyone dealing with the impact to their livelihood a distaste for wolves or the right to put a 55 grain pill between the eyes of as many as they can. I dislike hunters thinking that conservation is about them, and not wildlife.

Thanks for what you do! I mean it. Lamb is this volunteer work or who pays your salary?

 

[Ben Lamb]

Thanks for what you do! I mean it. Lamb is this volunteer work or who pays your salary?

I've done it both ways. I used to work for a small state-based nonprofit (MT Wildlife Federation) when we did the Simpson-Tester delisting rider, and as a consultant & contract lobbyist for various other organizations. I've volunteered for some of the same groups to help ensure that they did things well when they didn't have capacity, etc.

I appreciate what you guys have to live with when it comes to predators, and I'm a firm believer that landowners should be able to protect their property, and I totally agree that we live in a great nation where we can have friendly discussions on passionate issues. Cheers!

 

[tjones]

What WI needs is a good ol (D) Senator like Tester and a commie wildlife advocate like Lamb to get their wolves delisted. Worked in MT and ID. Maybe we should loan them out.

 

[dgc1963]

Tell me more about that "vote" on the wolf issue in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming...

The one thing cool about wolves, is the fairy tales that come with them...and no, not little red riding hood.

Like I said if I remember right, it was back in early 90s but wasnt their a ballot initiative about wolf reintroduction in early 90s in some of the states involved

 

[BuzzH]

Like I said if I remember right, it was back in early 90s but wasnt their a ballot initiative about wolf reintroduction in early 90s in some of the states involved

No.