Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

So four years into this thread, would I be accurate to summarize by saying the Residents of Montana can neither manage their Mule Deer nor their invited Non - Resident guests? I have no interest in hunting Montana at present (probably from dropping in on this thread over the years) but it seems a hard NR cap on public and transferable landowner tags on private would solve a lot of the problems of “NR’s killing all the deer”. Have your cake and eat it too…unless, well, perhaps residents with a forever long season in the rut is also a problem?

We will let you know what works when we find out. History is written by the ones that win, you know? So far the lobbyists, useful idiots, outfitters and guides, and Non Residents have the state of Montana In Check. Keep popping in….
 
Somehow Montanans that kill elk, in fact, 1/3 of Montanans that kill elk are doing so on private. Meanwhile, Non residents are 60+% Above their normal average in the last 11 years. How can that be so? 🤔
Talk about have your cake and eat it too, as said by the Texan… acting like there’s some real concern for mule deer when you oughtta listen to the biologists (not anecdotes) and just focus on John Deere….IMG_7687.pngIMG_7688.png
 
This 4 years of banter has and always will be BS. Let the bios make the calls, suck it up and deal with what they say. Even you, MOGA. Even you, residents. Even you, SGA UPOM and all the rest.
 
Somehow Montanans that kill elk, in fact, 1/3 of Montanans that kill elk are doing so on private. Meanwhile, Non residents are 60+% Above their normal average in the last 11 years. How can that be so? 🤔
Talk about have your cake and eat it too, as said by the Texan… acting like there’s some real concern for mule deer when you oughtta listen to the biologists (not anecdotes) and just focus on John Deere….View attachment 416611View attachment 416612
It would be interesting to know how much of that has to do with OTC cow hunting and/or paid shoulder season hunts. I’d bet that has something to do with it.
 
Absolutely! Too many from all different points of view have a me over the resource kind of attitude. If more on each side would focus a bit more on the actual resource, finding a middle ground would be much easier.
Tried it once. It may sound odd but the feedback I saw seemed more people were interested in putting the screw to some other party than how it affects their own season. I assume a lot of it comes down to just flat jealousy
 
Tried it once. It may sound odd but the feedback I saw seemed more people were interested in putting the screw to some other party than how it affects their own season. I assume a lot of it comes down to just flat jealousy
Should be a question on the next survey…
Who are you most jealous of?
A) outfitters
B) landowners
C) NRs with money that hire outfitters
D) NRs that dare hunt public ground
E) people at FWP because they have jobs
 
Should be a question on the next survey…
Who are you most jealous of?
A) outfitters
B) landowners
C) NRs with money that hire outfitters
D) NRs that dare hunt public ground
E) people at FWP because they have jobs
Should ask some guys to rank that list I bet it would take them days
 
We will let you know what works when we find out. History is written by the ones that win, you know? So far the lobbyists, useful idiots, outfitters and guides, and Non Residents have the state of Montana In Check. Keep popping in….
I sincerely wish you and all the sportsmen of Montana good luck in finding a solution that makes Montana mule deer hunting great again.
 
Absolutely! Too many from all different points of view have a me over the resource kind of attitude. If more on each side would focus a bit more on the actual resource, finding a middle ground would be much easier.
I think this is the biggest crux. Science says the population isn’t impacted until bucks get down to a certain number or ratio. So as long as the populations are managed to remain above that minimum threshold, from a buck standpoint (main interest and segment harvested), “there is no issue,” says the biology.

From a social standpoint, many hunters would like to see more bucks, more age class, greater diversity in antlers, etc. When this is lacking or in decline, “there absolutely is a problem with the resource.”

To further muddy everything up, the degree in social desires and what people deem acceptable varies widely. Probably why in the absence of objectives specifically tailored to a certain buck ratio/standard, in addition to a large segment of (ahem, resident) hunters who enjoy their current opportunities, the status quo remains, at least until the population/science triggers are actually triggered. Cue R7 reducing the numbers of B licenses, many general licenses going to buck only, etc. in the last few years.

Couple all that with the steep decline in opportunity that would be required to meet some of the social objectives, in the face of weather changes, habitat loss/fragmentation, succession, technology, access, predation, competition, disease.. of which deer populations didn’t have to deal with historically to the extent they do today. I argue so much on here because I don’t think the answer is as simple as ending rut hunting or some of these other single treatments. I wish it was. I wish the solution was as simple as it may have been years ago without all these other things acting so hard on populations, but I don’t think it will be anymore.

I do know FWP tries to meet some social expectations with existing LE, shortened season, etc. HDs throughout the state. I don’t see many examples of people here being super stoked about the opportunities in those HDs, either, though. I’ve read complaints about how 270 isn’t what it used to be, nothing really good said about the HDs in R3 or 652.. nothing really at all about the current HDs with a shortened season…?

And hence, round and around she goes. I do know that with the new MD management plan about to come out, there will be associated public comment opportunities, etc. I would hope that at the bare minimum, everyone who has spoken up in here the last 4 years has something to say there as well. I know some will, but I expect many won’t.
 
We will let you know what works when we find out. History is written by the ones that win, you know? So far the lobbyists, useful idiots, outfitters and guides, and Non Residents have the state of Montana In Check. Keep popping in….

I’m happy to text you a reminder to the next opportunity I find out about where we all get a chance to testify in favor of the agendas we want to see advanced.

Last one I attended in person in Helena had fewer than five DIY hunters that showed up in person to testify. A few more testified via Zoom call. One of those DIY hunters only testimony was to complain that his son couldn’t shoot five does anymore…
Some of the rest of us in the room shot down a commissioner’s proposal to increase the 900 series archery permit by 1500 by pointing out that historically residents draw at 85% or greater and than any tags available after residents drew would be allocated to NR.

That kept at least several hundred additional NR archery antelope hunters out of the field this year.

The world is run by those who show up.
 
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We will let you know what works when we find out. History is written by the ones that win, you know? So far the lobbyists, useful idiots, outfitters and guides, and Non Residents have the state of Montana In Check. Keep popping in….
If add to this that moga got the doe killing taken away form public land in 6/7 I’d also add when we tried making a change they didn’t fight us on making a change to season structure. They are actually the only group that wasn’t running around yelling the sky is falling. I’ll never hire a guide in Montana but I can appreciate the work they have done for the common man like it or not. Turns out it’s bad business for them to destroy the landscape
 
I do know FWP tries to meet some social expectations with existing LE, shortened season, etc. HDs throughout the state. I don’t see many examples of people here being super stoked about the opportunities in those HDs, either, though. I’ve read complaints about how 270 isn’t what it used to be, nothing really good said about the HDs in R3 or 652.. nothing really at all about the current HDs with a shortened season…?
I think it is a little bit unrealistic to think that a person with a working brain would sing the praises on the web of a unit that they wish to draw a tag for, let alone an OTC unit that tens of thousands of hunters have a tag for. Just guessing.
 
I’m happy to text you a reminder to the next opportunity I find out about where we all get a chance to testify

The world is run by those who show up.
And hence, round and around she goes. I do know that with the new MD management plan about to come out, there will be associated public comment opportunities, etc. I would hope that at the bare minimum, everyone who has spoken up in here the last 4 years has something to say there as well. I know some will, but I expect many won’t.

I look forward to the reminder. Unfortunately for most of us blue collar Montanans, taking time off to argue shit that only deep pockets will change, has a very hard time being squeezed into the agenda. I’d be happy to attend, if my pocketbook allows. Or my raggedy ass truck.
 
I think it is a little bit unrealistic to think that a person with a working brain would sing the praises on the web of a unit that they wish to draw a tag for, let alone an OTC unit that tens of thousands of hunters have a tag for. Just guessing.

I’m not suggesting that posters start name-dropping HDs and saying “omg this is totally great now.” But, if this thread is actually meant to spur positive action, yet some can’t even acknowledge that x, y, or z season structure has been shown to yield the results they’d like to see when applied in Montana, then what is it you hope to gain? In other words, why would FWP make big changes to an area where they’ve tried some elsewhere, when the people who are calling for these changes can’t say they’re happy with them? Let alone, many folks who are upset with MT management still call out these districts as being sucky in some cases too?

Without naming any of these HDs, are their current season structures something you’re happy with, based on the number of deer/bucks/caliber you’re looking for, along with the balance of having at least some opportunity to hunt them, and you want to see more of that? That’s the kind of stuff that would be useful for FWP to know probably, on a larger, collective scale. It’s already been talked about how LE isn’t a viable, large-scale option. But I haven’t seen anyone mention how current shortened seasons may or may not be moving the needle, even if just a bit. Again, I only bring it up because rut hunting is such a common theme, and seasons exist/existed in Montana that cut out a significant portion of the rut. Is it working?

There are many thoughtful ideas being pitched here. Some are already in existence. Some may have other limitations, complexity, or consequences. But to start narrowing it down to what this collective might want (if that’s even possible), it would help a lot to think about how that application is already working (or not) where it already exists… maybe? This tangent was also not the main point I was trying to make. Rather, the disconnect between social and biological perspectives and how the space between should be recognized as that.
 
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I look forward to the reminder. Unfortunately for most of us blue collar Montanans, taking time off to argue shit that only deep pockets will change, has a very hard time being squeezed into the agenda. I’d be happy to attend, if my pocketbook allows. Or my raggedy ass truck.

Zoom call works too.

Last few things I saw changed just needed folks to weigh in with respectful communication about what they wanted. Doesn’t always work out the way you want but sometimes it does.
 
I’m not suggesting that posters start name-dropping HDs and saying “omg this is totally great now.” But, if this thread is actually meant to spur positive action, yet some can’t even acknowledge that x, y, or z season structure has been shown to yield the results they’d like to see when applied in Montana, then what is it you hope to gain? In other words, why would FWP make big changes to an area where they’ve tried some elsewhere, when the people who are calling for these changes can’t say they’re happy with them? Let alone, many folks who are upset with MT management still call out these districts as being sucky in some cases too?

Without naming any of these HDs, are their current season structures something you’re happy with, based on the number of deer/bucks/caliber you’re looking for, along with the balance of having at least some opportunity to hunt them, and you want to see more of that? That’s the kind of stuff that would be useful for FWP to know probably, on a larger, collective scale. It’s already been talked about how LE isn’t a viable, large-scale option. But I haven’t seen anyone mention how current shortened seasons may or may not be moving the needle, even if just a bit. Again, I only bring it up because rut hunting is such a common theme, and seasons exist/existed in Montana that cut out a significant portion of the rut. Is it working?

There are many thoughtful ideas being pitched here. Some are already in existence. Some may have other limitations, complexity, or consequences. But to start narrowing it down to what this collective might want (if that’s even possible), it would help a lot to think about how that application is already working (or not) where it already exists… maybe?
652 went from 15-25 tags to 200 in a very short time frame. It’s a very small district. There was a time when it was good, not that long ago, maybe that should be a lesson to fwp and the commission of constantly increasing quotas. There are several LE units I have heard very good things about as recent as last year. I’m not advocating for LE I think there are plenty of steps we could do to improve mule deer management before we go down that road.
 
652 went from 15-25 tags to 200 in a very short time frame. It’s a very small district. There was a time when it was good, not that long ago, maybe that should be a lesson to fwp and the commission of constantly increasing quotas. There are several LE units I have heard very good things about as recent as last year. I’m not advocating for LE I think there are plenty of steps we could do to improve mule deer management before we go down that road.
That must have been a really long time ago? There were like around 100-125 in the early 2000s, they got reduced to 50 or so after winter 2010-11, and except for one year they were at 200 (2021), they’ve been back to 100-125…
 

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