Most important piece right here...in particular the bolded part. That is precisely what has happened since the early 1990's in most of the state. The GF response was to just increase the cow tags in any given unit when landowners complained. The elk that primarily were accessible (those on public) got the snot shot out of them. The elk found in the hayfields, they didn't get killed. We removed the elk we shouldn't have and allowed the elk that were a problem to thrive. About like changing the tire on the passenger side because the tire is flat on the drivers side...makes ZERO sense.
But, what caused the shift to begin with? It's a learned behavior from pressure, no different than a migration corridor or does and their female fawns returning to nearly the same places to have their fawns.
100%. How long does it take for them to change this behavior? These elk get hunted on private consistently. They try to move to the public and get ran back most of the time before anyone even shoots at them.
Exactly. These learned behaviors may have resulted in pressure applied to the wrong places (public lands), but it’s going to take more than just easing public land pressure to unlearn these behaviors. On top of the non-pressure-related incentives elk have to be on private lands.
Also true?
In the case of migration corridors a long time. I asked that question to Kauffman at a presentation on migration, he said generations of animals up to 100+ years in the case of transplanted animals having to learn from scratch.
You're not wrong.
This. Especially in my area if Montana. I haven't seen a cow elk on public land in a long, long time. And scratching out a bull is a bitch too. Learned behavior keeps them where they are. And no amount if pressure will move them. Some will argue with me, but around here the shift started when the wolves got here.. mtmuley
Echo'ing this. The proposal seems to trigger a "response" more and more - and not a conversation. Its not really even worth engaging some at this point.
This is the main reason why I have remained engaged in this thread. I’d be curious to see if someone can ask a question that hasn’t been beat to death yet in these threads about our idea.
I recall seeing that as well, but there was also a population estimate- broken down by region and statewide- that went back to the ‘50s. I understand the 50s was an unsustainably high population, but the decades that followed were not. And the population trend was showing significant decline every year.
I can honestly say that I am willing to bet the vast majority of Montana hunters have no idea of this proposal and might not even care if they did. Just based off of people I talk to in my travels that are "hunters". It's really frustrating but it is what it is. And the non resident give a shit is even lower. Not sure how to change that. Maybe by eliminating the word opportunity. mtmuley
It’s funny to me because all the people I look in the eye and have a face to face conversation with I’ve only had like 2 get all huffy about it. Most people ask how they can help and think something needs to change. We are doing what we can to get out and spread information but there is some places we don’t care to go onto such as Facebook because that’s just a megaphone for stupidity go check out montamerica if you need proof of it.
I don't FB. Never will. Just pointing out the ignorance of the average hunter and their understanding of the issues at hand. I run into guys that don't even understand the regulations. It's an uphill battle. mtmuley
I've thought about the bull hunting portion as well. In a lot areas in NW Montana, there are so few bull elk, hardly anyone is hunting them now. I mean pretty tough to hunt what's not there. Plus, hunting bulls that time of year is a way different deal than hunting cows. The bulls are usually alone or in smaller groups, way away from the herds of cows. Sure, sometimes a raghorn or something will be with cows still, but for the most part you're hunting 2 different animals almost. Point being, if the cows on public land that time of year aren't being shot at, they have no real reason to leave. The only pressure that cows that time of year in many areas are getting is youth hunters (I think that should be looked at and probably stopped in many areas).
Fwp would have the power to make those tweaks this is just an idea they can take as much of it as they want add whatever they want. They make the rules we are just making a suggestion
