Montana bonus points history

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With all the talk this session about Wyoming and Idaho fighting bonus point bills, it's made me curious how MT's came about. I'm not finding much for info online, and I wasn't really old enough at the time to pay attention.

Was it a legislative bill? Was there as much push back?

Why the two year gap between M/S/G and D/E/A? Were they pushed through on seperate bills?

Also, as a side note to somewhat see if they help, is there anyone on the site or know of anyone that has max points for all of moose, sheep and goat? Or better yet max for those three plus max for deer and elk?

I've got a combined 40 for the five species right now, and have never drawn a moose, sheep, goat, buck or bull permit.

 

[Carrion Carrier]

Ouch Randy! That's some pretty bad luck there. Hopefully points squaring will help you and you'll soon be facing the dilemma of two good tags at once.

I hope to be cashing in my sheep points for a ewe hunt this year. It will be my first year bowhunting and what better way to do it (other than a ram)? Then, unlimited hunts until I hang one:hump:

 

[justdada]

What's max at this year? I'm sitting on 12, 11 and 9 for sheep goat and moose.

 

[THWAK1]

12 for sheep
9 for elk
1 for moose...building back up
0 for mountain goat...have to wait one more year to start building points again

 

[Toadslayer]

The problem with bonus points is that it doesn't really ever give you THAT much of an advantage. If 100, or 1000, or 1,000,000 people have all the same amounts of bonus points and they all throw their name in the hat, the draw odds are exactly the same as if they had no bonus points. So I think that is the case in MT with most hunters probably having max bonus points right now.

 

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So I think that is the case in MT with most hunters probably having max bonus points right now.

I see that thrown around all the time, but it just doesn't seem true. in 2011, 3607 residents put in for unit 680 ram (I tried to think of the tag most guys with max would be applying for), and only 648 had max.

Looking at moose, goat and some of the more generic sheep tags, and there's a lot of tags that only 5-10% putting in have max. Especially with squaring now, having max should be a real advantage.

 

[Toadslayer]

I was speaking more about the elk side. Look how many folks put in for 380 elk every year, thousands of residents with probably MAX bonus points, I know cause that's how I got all mine when I was a resident

 

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I was speaking more about the elk side. Look how many folks put in for 380 elk every year, thousands of residents with probably MAX bonus points, I know cause that's how I got all mine when I was a resident

915 out of 9624 in 2011, less than ten percent.

 

[Toadslayer]

But that is still alot of names in the hat nullifying your advantage for 70-80 tags in that unit. Now add in the guys with one less than max, and 2 less than Max, it makes my point that bonus points are not a huge advantage.

 

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I was just pointing out that both of these statements you made were very untrue.

So I think that is the case in MT with most hunters probably having max bonus points right now.

Look how many folks put in for 380 elk every year, thousands of residents with probably MAX bonus points,

 

[Gerald Martin]

Statistically speaking, squaring the bonus points definitely give an advantage to max point holders. The math doesn't lie. The reality of it all is that if you apply for a tag that has poor drawing odds anyway, having squared bonus points only makes your poor odds become slightly less poor.

Odds are that many people will NEVER draw a sheep tag in their lifetime. Not very comforting, but its reality and the reality that SOME people will draw those hard to get tags keeps me putting in. I can't say that I've got anything to complain about. In 10 years of applying my wife has drawn a sheep and a Breaks bull elk rifle tag and I've drawn a moose and a goat tag. Maybe this year my 11 points for sheep will be what it takes. I'm back to building points for moose and only have to wait a couple more years to apply for goat again.

One other thing about odds and fairness of tag allocation. How many people complaining about never drawing for 30 years are putting in for the hardest tags to draw? I purposely look for the easiest tags in the state to draw and apply there figuring that I would rather have the experience of hunting a specie in an area not known to produce trophies than not hunt them at all.

 

[Big Fin]

With all the talk this session about Wyoming and Idaho fighting bonus point bills, it's made me curious how MT's came about. I'm not finding much for info online, and I wasn't really old enough at the time to pay attention.

Was it a legislative bill? Was there as much push back?

Why the two year gap between M/S/G and D/E/A? Were they pushed through on seperate bills?

Also, as a side note to somewhat see if they help, is there anyone on the site or know of anyone that has max points for all of moose, sheep and goat? Or better yet max for those three plus max for deer and elk?

I've got a combined 40 for the five species right now, and have never drawn a moose, sheep, goat, buck or bull permit.

I was on the committee that came up with the current system. Here are answers to your questions.

Was it a legislative bill? Was there as much push back?

It was a committee that included two FWP Commissioners, some outfitters, one non-resident, rifle hunters, and archery hunters. The committee met many times over the course of a year, then prepared a proposal that went out for public comment. The comments were taken and the proposal adjusted accordingly.

Then, the legislators took the bill and it passed without any resistance.

Why the two year gap between M/S/G and D/E/A? Were they pushed through on seperate bills?

That gap was a request from the Department. They wanted to see how it went with species that did not have a lot of tags M/G/S, before jumping into the bigger numbers of elk/deer/antelope.

I think it was one bill, with stagerred implementation dates. I could be wrong, given that was a long time ago, but I think that is how it was put together.

We had statisticians come and talk to us. They made it very clear, that no kind of bonus or preference point system is going to solve the frustration hunters feel when there are 100 applicants for each tag, as is the case with sheep. Pretty much the same with goat and moose.

The best way to increase the odds of drawing those tags is to work on measure that increase tag numbers. In other words, putting more sheep on the mountain, more moose in the hills, more goats in different ranges. That is the only way to increase drawing odds.

Rather, we have legislators passing bills that take us the other direction. One should go back and look at how many ram tags we had in 1998, versus now. See what has happened in 15 years. I suspect it would show why odds are getting worse and worse.

Some other things that were discussed.

Squaring bonus points, similar to what Nevada does. This was rejected for two reasons. First, it get closer to a preference point system, rather than bonus points. And, for M/G/S, so many people are at the high point level, that squaring makes almost no statistical difference to those in that high point group.

M/G/S - Once in a lifetime. This was rejected, as many on the committee has some aspiration that they might draw two tags in their live, but mostly because it has a very small difference in the statistical outcomes. I had just drawm a goat tag and was willing to make it a Once-in-a-liftetime. Where it does have a big difference in my mind is when people hear about someone drawing a second tag, immediately after the seven-year wait and it erodes people's confidence in the system (not focused at you MTmiller ).

Elk/Deer/Antelope - Implement a seven year wait for any hunt that had draw odds of less than 10%. That would be mostly the limited entry elk tags. I wanted this, but there were a lot of gray hairs in the crowd and they did not like that idea. So, my proposal was shot down.

It must have created some good karma for me to advocate that, as I have drawn four limited entry bull elk rifle tags from 2004-2012. Under my proposed rule, upon drawing my Breaks tag in 2004 I would not have been allowed to apply again until 2012. So, I have since drawn three more tags that could have went to someone else under that idea.

Random draw for half the tags - Since point systems tend to keep younger hunters at the bottom of the pile, and possibly discourage them from even applying, it was suggested we make half the tags be subject to a random draw without regard to points. That would give young hunters a better chance and still give all of us a chance if we did not draw in the bonus point round. It died a quick death. I supported that proposal.

There were a ton of other ideas kicked around. This system was a reflecting of the committee and those who took time to comment, which was not very many people. It was tilted toward older guys who wanted to get their chance before they are planted in the pine box. It is not very favorable to younger hunters.

Hope that helps.

 

[Toadslayer]

I was just pointing out that both of these statements you made were very untrue.

How?

So you don't think there are thousands of people putting in for tags in MT with max bonus points? You came in with a number of 915 put in with Max points. That's pretty damn close to 1000. It's not like I said millions.

My initial point stays the same. IF everyone shares many or max bonus points and they put their name in the hat, it does not change the odds that much.

 

[mtmiller]

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[1_pointer]

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Chicken...

 

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Hope that helps.

Very informative, thanks Fin.

The implementation of squaring the points last year, that was the legislature right? Was that in spite of or in tune with the original bill?

I would be very curious to know what percentage of guys, or if there's any, that started building points when they started, and still haven't drawn one of the big three.

I'm a fan of the current system.

 

[Big Fin]

Very informative, thanks Fin.

The implementation of squaring the points last year, that was the legislature right? Was that in spite of or in tune with the original bill?

It was the legislature. It was inspite of the original bill. Seems the legislature thinks a fifteen minute hearing among legislators is better than a year-long process of committee meetings and public comment.

I would be very curious to know what percentage of guys, or if there's any, that started building points when they started, and still haven't drawn one of the big three.

I'm a fan of the current system.

Not sure of the percentages, but most my hunting buddies got in on the ground floor. I can count on one hand the number who have drawn sheep tags. I am not one of the lucky five. Odds are, about 1% per year will draw a sheep tag. So, given the system has been in effect for eight (?) years, less than 8% of the max point holders have drawn, given many tags are drawn by those with less than max points.

I have been in on the ground floor for moose and have not drawn. Was five years into the seven year waiting list for goats, so I am two points behind max on goats.

Realistically, I don't expect to draw either moose or sheep until we start getting more sheep on the mountain and more moose in the hills. Just statistics.

When you apply for species that have 1:50 or 1:120 odds, it is not realistic to think that a 48 year-old hunter is going to draw before getting called up by the Big Trapper.

 

[TheTone]

Fin,

Looking back on it were you or are you worried about the effect the point system will have on young and/or new hunters that will most likely always be behind in the points game or those that kind of casually apply for a controlled hunt when the oppurtunity seems worthwhile? I'm just worried about the possibility of what may happen over here, espicially since ours is basically being legislatively driven with little to no sportsman or department input.

 

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It was the legislature. It was inspite of the original bill. Seems the legislature thinks a fifteen minute hearing among legislators is better than a year-long process of committee meetings and public comment.

That's what I thought.

Realistically, I don't expect to draw either moose or sheep until we start getting more sheep on the mountain and more moose in the hills. Just statistics.

When you apply for species that have 1:50 or 1:120 odds, it is not realistic to think that a 48 year-old hunter is going to draw before getting called up by the Big Trapper.

Depressing, but you're probably right. Also I wasn't considering non-residents, I'm sure there's plenty of them with max in all three.

I've got max in Moose, that's the one I really keep my fingers crossed for, especially with the direction they're headed.

I guess false hope or not, it's nice to sit on my pile of points and fantasize.

 

[Big Fin]

Fin,

Looking back on it were you or are you worried about the effect the point system will have on young and/or new hunters that will most likely always be behind in the points game or those that kind of casually apply for a controlled hunt when the oppurtunity seems worthwhile? I'm just worried about the possibility of what may happen over here, espicially since ours is basically being legislatively driven with little to no sportsman or department input.

I was very worried then, thus my request for some of the changes. I thought keeping half the tags as random would be best. Even with those changes, on the Big Three, young people would have had a pretty slim chance, as do all of us.

I just don't like a system where a parent looks at a new hunter and tells them, "Guess what, you are so far behind, you will be 56 years-old before you catch up on the point creep."

That is hardly a situation that gives a young hunter much hope.

Since we have OTC elk and deer for kids, I am less concerned there. We have good hunting on our general units. If the entire state was limited entry, as is the case with M/G/S, I would be worried about systems that put young hunters at a big disadvantage.

If your legislature is like ours, they are at the bottom of the list of people who should be providing solutions to supposed problems.

If I lived in Idaho, I would be fighting like hell to no have a point system. I play all the point games in ever state. Just my opinion, but I like states with no points, even though Idaho seems to hate taking my money and a point system would probably help me there.

Since we have a finite number of tags, a point system is just a means to allocate those tags. Point systems do not create any additional tags, though some act as though we magically get more tags to allocate.

If we are just fighting over how to allocate the finite number of tags, one group will have better odds and draw more tags, at the expense of another group who will draw less tags. History shows that those who show up and lobby for their preferred changes will get the most benefit and those too busy or too young, will get less benefit.