Maybe we can’t have more hunters

JLS

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Big whoop. Without comparing it to other user groups it's meaningless.
To quote yourself, that’s a bullshit cop out response.

The work they do is absolutely not meaningless. There are trails across the Northern Rockies that would be pretty much impassable without volunteer work by Backcountry Horseman. Given a fair portion of it is within designated wilderness, it serves no benefit to the MTB crowd, so there is context in everything.

I’m sure the local bike club could care less about a boardwalk through a wetland in the Bob Marshall, but it’s still valuable work.
 

JLS

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A friend of mine is very active in this group. They do some really good stuff within the wilderness complex.
 

JLS

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Yes and no.

There are many areas that have gone to permit area camping.

Ski areas have boundaries, and to some extent the temporal nature of that sport mitigates impact. Not a lot of elk at 12k feet in 8 feet of snow. To that end backcountry skiers aren't typically messing with animals.

Bikers stay on trails, largely.

The problem is there are crowding issues with all of these... and as much as we hate a 10 year wait on an elk tag, a 10 year wait on a float trip is just as bad.
The level of regulation on some activities is pretty intense. There are a lot of hoops to jump through for river floats, backcountry alpine climbing, etc.

Unfortunately, I don’t see a lot of law enforcement presence to ensure compliance.
 

neffa3

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Big whoop. Without comparing it to other user groups it's meaningless.
To quote yourself "So do hunters, equestrians, hikers, and a whole host of other public land users. Never seen any of them doing work to maintain trails."

The point is you were talking out your ass with that comment. Tons of those user groups do trail maintenance.

1639768762088.png
I am constantly enjoying (or lamenting) the work of these guys... not mountain bikers.
 
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wllm1313

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The level of regulation on some activities is pretty intense. There are a lot of hoops to jump through for river floats, backcountry alpine climbing, etc.

Unfortunately, I don’t see a lot of law enforcement presence to ensure compliance.
You telling me climbers don't get harassed about their hats being orange enough?

No....

I don't believe it...
 

wllm1313

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@JLS my dad was a USFS Ranger in the summer and did quite a bit of 'hanging paper' in the summer with his partner.

Which is interesting because in the last 20 years I've never seen a USFS Ranger or BLM officer in the flesh. Some trail crews here and there but that's it.

So maybe a backpack tax could provide funding to agencies to regulate the user groups who are taxed.
 

rwc101

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To quote yourself "So do hunters, equestrians, hikers, and a whole host of other public land users. Never seen any of them doing work to maintain trails."

The point is you were talking out your ass with that comment. Tons of those user groups do trail maintenance.

View attachment 205720
I am constantly enjoying (or lamenting) the work of these guys... not mountain bikers.

Very strange that you know what I have seen. Around here the work is unquestionably done by mountain bike bikers. I never said anything about where you live in the situation could be very different there. The point was never that one group does all the work in all places.
 

rwc101

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No one on here ever wants to talk about certain high impact activities so long as they're hunting related. If someone post a picture of their three wall tent set up that they horse packed in 10 mi so they can hunt for two weeks straight there is never discussion about the impact that has on the surrounding environment. Whenever people talk about getting rid of over the counter tags in Colorado the discussion is 100% about bettering the hunting experience and never about the impact of thousands and thousands of hunters wandering around the mountainside. Shit like that is why the simple minded sand stereotyped mtb hate irks me.
 
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wllm1313

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No one on here ever wants to talk about certain high impact activities so long as they're hunting related. If someone post a picture of their three wall tent set up that they horse packed in 10 mi so they can hunt for two weeks straight there is never discussion about the impact that has on the surrounding environment. Whenever people talk about getting rid of over the counter tags in Colorado the discussion is 100% about bettering the hunting experience and never about the impact of thousands and thousands of hunters wandering around the mountainside. Shit like that is Eevee the simple minded sand stereotyped mtb hate irks me.
I'm conjuring some images from CO hunts over the years....

Giant fifth wheels + RZR trailer parked in the middle of a meadow...

The little cities that pop up in various parts of the state with sometimes 30 or 40 cars, dozens of tents and campers.

Feels like hunters are both the most "leave no trace" and the least user group.
 

rwc101

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I'm conjuring some images from CO hunts over the years....

Giant fifth wheels + RZR trailer parked in the middle of a meadow...

The little cities that pop up in various parts of the state with sometimes 30 or 40 cars, dozens of tents and campers.

Feels like hunters are both the most "leave no trace" and the least user group.

And I think even a classical "leave no trace" hunt involves more impact than most hunters will ever admit. We walk off trail, spook all manner of wildlife, shoot firearms, and tend to stay in an area far longer than most hikers, cyclists, and horseback riders.
 

JLS

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Feels like hunters are both the most "leave no trace" and the least user group.
Honestly, I thinking you take a 20k foot look at this, it’s not unique to any user group.

Backcountry hikers, mountain bikers, horseback riders, rafters all do things to degrade habitat and natural resources. That’s why there are strict regulation on the Salmon River, the Enchantment Peaks, the Cascade volcanoes and so on.

The higher the density of people nearby the higher the impacts are. Motorized users can quickly do tremendous damage, but on the flip side I’ve seen atrocious damage by backcountry horse camps.
 

bullbugle307

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No one on here ever wants to talk about certain high impact activities so long as they're hunting related. If someone post a picture of their three wall tent set up that they horse packed in 10 mi so they can hunt for two weeks straight there is never discussion about the impact that has on the surrounding environment. Whenever people talk about getting rid of over the counter tags in Colorado the discussion is 100% about bettering the hunting experience and never about the impact of thousands and thousands of hunters wandering around the mountainside. Shit like that is why the simple minded sand stereotyped mtb hate irks me.
That's simply not true. There's a lot of folks that care about things for the habitat and wildlife resources sake. Often times that means limiting our own opportunities, and we darn well know it.

Besides, it's all interrelated. How many times is bettering the hunting experience not going to be accomplished by limiting timing and methods of take and taking better care of the habitat and wildlife?

It seems to me like you just got defensive about people pointing out some negatives from the mountain biking community as a whole. I see plenty of hunters do that too, and frankly it irritates me just the same.
 

rwc101

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That's simply not true. There's a lot of folks that care about things for the habitat and wildlife resources sake. Often times that means limiting our own opportunities, and we darn well know it.

Besides, it's all interrelated. How many times is bettering the hunting experience not going to be accomplished by limiting timing and methods of take and taking better care of the habitat and wildlife?

It seems to me like you just got defensive about people pointing out some negatives from the mountain biking community as a whole. I see plenty of hunters do that too, and frankly it irritates me just the same.

Hunt talk is a small community of hunters that rightfully criticizes many practices that they find unethical. Just like any community however we also have our blinders on about our own activities.

As far as your opinion on why I have the stance I do, I frankly don't care.
 

Hammsolo

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I'm talking more about numbers of users and managing impact. We at least have some well managed limited quota type systems. There's very few quota type systems to keep other user groups from loving things to death.

It is true that there are few quota systems for other users. I guess there are permits for some camping, hiking, floating areas…

“Some” is the proverbial word in hunting, and even in quota areas it can be a crap show. This year in Montana it was crazy. My brother drew a very limited either sex elk tag. We had a youth hunt, nearly countless cow elk hunters, and deer hunters all over the place. My brother and I would hike 3 to 5 miles away from any road, and it seemed there would be hunters on every ridge. So frustrating, and I know some of the ideas to decrease pressure are unpopular. Decreasing tags… Increasing prices…

I wonder how we can decrease pressure, and increase perceived public value?
 

Hammsolo

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View attachment 205701
Dude, backcountry horsemen arguably maintain more trails annually than the F-in' feds do. Talk about getting off your high horse...

🍆 📏 !!!! I wanted to post other groups stats, but I resisted. We will have to find a way to work together, or we may all loose our 🥜.

I spend a lot of time packing, camping, hunting mountain biking, and more… I’ve never witnessed it.
 

VikingsGuy

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We don't need more people going elk hunting, we need more people caring about elk winter range
That is how hunting will become illegal over the next 50 yrs. There is a fair chance that the politically relevant population of people vested in animals and their habitat will be the next-gen of the Yellowstone wolf watchers - vested to the point that hunting them would be an anathema.
 

VikingsGuy

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every use group is imperfect and carries many rightful negative stereotypes.
That is true . . . but urban bike enthusiasts are some of the most obnoxious - just ask any urban city council member. Also near the top are "dog park" advocates.
 
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